'Dispatches' Ch4 last neet.

You said "if you are arrested the police can take DNA samples off you and keep them even if you are found not guilty of the offence you were arrested for.", isn't that already the case with regards to fingerprints?

 

RE: Nothing

I think this whole policy is based on the likes of me.................

 

RE: DNA

My problem with people who hold these views is that when as an individual you dont hold any objective truths about what the laws of society (or indeed anything else) should be you are prone to being talked blindly into anything that sounds "reasonable" by anyone.

To borrow a quote........

 

RE: DNA

Being a suspect doesn't make you guilty. The inference being that taking DNA off someone SUSPECTED of doing something and keeping it is ok to him.

Again, tell me why I should have my DNA taken by the state when Im not a criminal. I could perhaps handle them destroying my DNA records having proved myself innocent of something but why should I allow them to keep information on me when Im innocent?

What's more why should YOU agree to them to take something off me that has nothing to do with you? Eh? What business of yours or anyone else's is my DNA? Of course we could do more to stop crime in the first place, but as usual its all back to front and upside down.........

 

It used to be the case that fingerprints were destroyed if you werent guilty or released without charge, but that changed in about 2000/01 (?)

 

Acky! How can u possibly know my thoughts on this subject from 1 post? You misinterpret well!

People do not just get 'locked up' if someone falsely accuses them - there has to be at least some kind of evidence to support it. Have you read thru the new SOCAP act where anyone can be arrested for any offence? At first glance then this does appear to be a radical step towards a Police state BUT if you look into it in more detail then it actually takes the emphasis OFF arresting people. If there is not a good reason to deprive someone of their liberty then it should not be done, they should be dealt with by other means - Human rights act basics! There has bnot been as much fuss made about this act as I expected, there have even been some 'oversights' in my eyes in this bill, e.g there is no longer a power of entry into a property to arrest someone if they are being pursued for being a disqualified driver or if you suspect they have TWOC'ed a car.

As to the DNA issue regarding falsely accused people and the innocent children you presume are actually innocent then there is and has always been the facility to dispose of their DNA by applying to the Chief Constable to have this done. I think this issue has been under reported in the press as they pick up on comments which inflame and are selective.

I respect your opinions regarding this issue and do not wish to appear as though I am justifying what is going on but merely having an infomred discussion relating to them. I like your 'Big Brother' reference but what would you suggest regarding the taking of samples such as DNA or fingerprints? They are a useful tool and do catc`h criminals. It does not suggest that we are all criminals but is a tool to detect crime, and a useful preventative measure - would someone who has had their DNA sampled be dissuaded from commiting further acts?
Cheers
Chris

 

A rather insulting post!

Is it not a question of what is done with the database rather than the actual question of its existence? There is more than enough legislation in place to deal with any misuse of it and penalties for those that do. What alternatives do you suggest?

I don't like the comparisons between fascist Germany and the modern day. The vast majority of people abhor and are disgusted by any such suggestions as you state and will protest against any violation of Human rights that may be performed as above. We have legitimate court processes to go through if anyone wishes to complain.
Cheers
Chris

 

RE: A rather insulting post!

Who am I insulting???

 

RE: A rather insulting post!

People who have an opposing viewpoint about the DNA database - do you think that these people will then have tendencies to go on and use the database as you suggest or am i getting the wrong end of the stick from your post? I know it is a rather emotive subject and it's difficult to get real meanings behind posts so I apologise if this is not what you intended!
C

 

RE: A rather insulting post!

I am suggesting that, if we carry on down that path then it is one scenario that could happen. I'm going over the top, taking it too far, but I'm doing that to prove a point. Its an erosion of civil liverties, its another drop of water on the head, drip drip drip. Can you understand why I might be worried.

 

RE: A rather insulting post!

I understand your point, but still do not agree that this will be the ultimate end point. I still hold firm to the point that this is done for the betterment of society. As soon as the things you suggest start happening then I will be squarely behind you but I fail to see how bringing criminals to justice is curtailing anyone's civil liberties except the scum who commit crimes that devestate people's lives. A sense of balance and proportion is required by the people who use the database and a set of restrictions imposed to govern it. I believe that we are currently well accountable for what it is being used for by way of answering for our actions in whichever court is necessary! c

 

RE: Acky! How can u possibly know my thoughts on this subject from 1 post? You misinterpret well!

But you don't have to be locked up to have your DNA taken, in fact you dont even have to be guilty. Doesn't also change the fact epople have been locked up and then released on "dodgy DNA evidence". Merely being wrongfully arrested (by mistake or by design) is reason enough. That's why 20,000 under 18's who haven't been found GUILTY of ANY offence have had their DNA taken. It gives room for police to wrnogfully arrest people just so they can take their DNA and add it to the database.

What sort of country does that to its youth? If this happened in the ex-USSR people would decry it - it happens here and it gets rationalised away.

Not aware of that, ill go have a read when i have time, cheers.

Well from the programme last night it would appear that this isn't being done. The half a dozen or so people in the programme last night who were wrongly arrested asked for their details to be removed but were told by different police forces that this wouldn't be done. As I understand it that alsoapplies for the majority of cases.

One woman wrote to Police Chief Sir Ian Blair and asked for her son's DNA to be removed (he was accused of the mugging but was the person who reported it!) but to no avail even though his Dad was a policeman. If you can show me examples of where DNA has been removed from police files Id be interested to read them. Fact is it's not in police interests to remove any fingerprints "just in case" they are needed.

Sorry can't agree. Logically speaking it suggests that anyone could be a criminal so "just in case" they keep all DNA (and since 2001) all fingerprints. If we aren't all criminals and they dont suspect us to be so, then why are they keep our fingerprints and DNA records in the first place?

People get arrested and go back to jail. People speed and still get caught speeding. People do all sorts of things over and over again despite the risk of being caught - so I doubt taking someones DNA and keeping it on file isnt going to stop them either.

 

RE: A rather insulting post!

Whose utimate point though? This governments? Or another one who perhaps isn't as capable or perhaps more corrupt than this one?

"Betterment for society"? Well perhaps the government could do something more to tackle these problems are the root rather than installing draconian laws which simply allow the reasons for some crimes to carry on existing. Oh no hold on that's too sensible for this set of politicians.........

So at what point do you make a stand? At what point is something "too excessive"? When it happens to you? A member of you family? A friend? Thing is if you believe in equality of law then you must make a stand when it effects anyone, whether you know them or not. All it takes is for good men to do nothing..........and all that.

Having worked for 2 government institutions who use databases the idea of serious mistakes not being made is sadly a pipe dream. When people are turned into names on a screen, with little connection to their lives or who they are as human beings they become just numbers, 'unpeople' if you like.

 

RE: A rather insulting post!

>As soon as the things you suggest start happening then I will be squarely behind you

By then it may be too late, by then you may be taken to one side and made an unperson. If you stand against the government then you are an enemy of the state.

>A sense of balance and proportion is required by the people who use the database and a set of restrictions imposed to govern it.

Good idea, we have the database already but as far as I can see, no sense of balance and obviously not enough restrictions. Its already too late.

>I believe that we are currently well accountable for

One word...naive.