Ever Get the feeling you’ve been cheated.

For me a hung parliament would be the dream result. Surely it's the best chance of getting the electoral reform our country so badly needs?

 

It's not an overreaction nor am I jumping on any bandwagon. Nor am I telling other people how to think.

 

if I were standing for office and I commented on a world leader who had transformed society in the post war period. Who had kick started a moribund economy and led to economic growth and a period of political domination.

First Who am I talking about?

If that leader is reviled by great swathes of the population should I add context to that comment?

So the Thatcher thing is straightforward you can list examples of positive change. Say Atlee, Wilson and Blair and state you are looking to emulate them.

You can also say on the other side of the coin you have Thatcher who transformed a society but made it much worse so we need to also learn the lessons of when transformative change goes completely wrong.

Starmer would clearly understand this but is more interested in courting the vote of those who will never vote for him.

 

From an electoral reform perspective, I'm not sure it would be the best chance of achieving it, as anything arising from this route would be subject to a referendum which, as we've seen from the Tory/Lib Dem coalition is notoriously difficult to succeed (even in a scenario where the Lib Dems hadn't blown their chance by consenting to such a poor choice of question).

Electoral reform isn't something that only the left are desperate for. I'd probably put it as my highest long-term priority for meaningful change and there's a considerable groundswell of similar opinion within the current Labour party membership for this. Our CLP debated it and passed it as our preferred motion for Conference this year, and it wasn't a factional vote, as often occurs with CLP business.

We're in a unique political situation currently, where it's possible that Labour achieve a significant majority under FPTP. However, it would be very short-sighted for anyone to think that the system, long-term, benefits anyone other than the Tories. Taking tribal voting out of the equation, there's the simpler argument that giving everyone an equal vote, rather than the postcode lottery of it only being meaningful in a marginal seat, would encourage people to go out and use it. I don't buy the argument that it gives the extreme parties (usually far-Right) a chance of representation as a bad thing. I think it would encourage a process of politicians having to work collaboratively, potentially via coalition, and would improve our politics immeasurably. Without it, we'll continue the endless cycle of extremism happening by stealth, as we've seen in recent years with both Labour and the Tories being taken over by factions that have steered them away from the centre, in opposite directions. We're effectively being governed by something approaching a far right party at the moment, so the alternative can't be any worse.

Ultimately, I think the best way for it to happen would be if a party had it as a manifesto pledge and won a electoral majority to effect it without requiring a referendum, having won a mandate to do so. The best chance to achieve it would be a second Labour term in office after an election win in 2024/5. I'm hopeful, but not optimistic, that they might have the foresight to look at doing this should they get the chance, but I suspect it's a more likely route to change than the complexities of another referendum on the issue.

 

Blair did the same thing, didn't hurt him in 1997.

 

What about if the leader invited her to tea at Number 10?

 

yes absolutely me too. It’s why anyone who wants a genuinely progressive Government needs to vote wisely. A pro austerity pro Brexit Labour Party pretty much removes potential for coalition with SNP, Plaid or Greens.

In my view we are in severe national crisis and need a rainbow alliance to tackle this. 13 years of the tories has brought the country to its knees and a Labour Party just offering more of the same is just as dangerous and will create more momentum for the far right.

if we look to France with Macron and Le Pen. His timidity and attacks on workers have pushed people into the arms of the far right. Labour are playing a very dangerous game.

 

Her greatest triumph?

 

Yes, no-one on the left would ever dream of making such a crass misjudgement as that, would they?

 

https://x.com/duncanrobinson/status/1731600190539239463?s=46&t=j20zR706pmXrBtdI_7p-NQ

 

in that article he strongly states that the change was negative. I can’t stand Owen Jones btw but you need a better attack line. Not sure Jones is leader of the Labour Party or standing for office either. Huge if true like.

if I said Hitler was a strong charismatic leader who transformed German society but qualified it with the fact that he was a vile genocidal racist who destroyed that society. I would be fine. If I didn’t qualify it in that way I wouldn’t be fine. Pretty straightforward stuff

 

Oh the irony, an argument to read the article rather than the strap-line.

 

Interestingly, a client in France said something very similar to me the other week. Macron is seen as being powder puff and ineffective on everything from environmental issues to immigration, so instead of uniting the country, he's actually pushing the centre left and centre right to the more extreme parties. Melanchon's socialists are seen as tried and tested, tired and failed, so the logical next stop for a lot of people is Le Pen.

 

This is the problem with capitalism. It relies on cheap labour and immigrants are that cheap labour. You cap it or reduce it, and essentially you kneecap your own economy. You allow it and without proper investment in public services (which have already been hammered) then you just end up with lots of disgruntled people who blame immigration for those issues. Your average Tory MP knows this, hence why immigration is still going up, but those far right loons want to stop it and smash the economy. Christ knows what it would do to inflation....

If only there were a government with a policy to tax wealth and use that money to fund those services we need........

 

Owen Jones on the left of what

 

Problem is there's a lot of people between Starmer and Hitler who've done some pretty nasty things, but could equally be praised for doing something which on its own could be seen as good (See Mussolini getting Italian trains running on time).

 

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/taking-labour-voters-who-despise-31588207

The thing about Starmer is that he is very bad at politics. Hence the reason he is personally unpopular with his party at 40% + in the polls.

Blair for all his faults was a consummate politician able to articulate a vision and win people over to that vision.

 

Getting the party from the dire straits it was in under the previous leader to the position it is in today doesn't look like bad politics to me. And I suspect he is little interested in personal popularity. Johnson was popular. Much good it did him/us.

 

Labour are way ahead in the polls. The country wants rid of the Tories and for things to improve and change, so why try to kiss Tory arse and praise a PM that destroyed the very fabric of our local and national society, and whose policies have helped to create this absolute ******* mess, 40 years later.

 

Please don't put words into my mouth and then call those words which I never said 'laughable'. Its really poor and impolite. I have never said any Labour Government would be as bad as the current Tory lot. Please be a bit more thoughtful and respectful before you comment on other peoples' posts. I have said Starmer and the Labour Party are very poor and are offering nothing which suggests any real change. I've stated my views about Starmer and explained them several times, including in this thread. I suspect a Labour Government will be more efficient than the Tories and less corrupt but at the moment that's all I see. So, in essence I think a Labour Government will be crap under Starmer and we will have more Tory austerity (so there will indeed be a parallel with the Tories) but things will be run more efficiently. No real change but not as awful as this despicable Tory administration.