Have you changed your mind ?

I don't think we're doomed in theory. I think we could probably give it a pretty good go in many ways. I'm just not sure that anyone in government has the competence to put anything into practice sensibly. Hardline eurosceptics seem hell-bent on pulling out whatever the cost for purely ideological reasons, the two leaders of the main parties don't seem particularly sure whether they truly believe in Brexit or not, and then you've got opportunists like Boris Johnson, who I don't for a second think truly believes we'd be better off out of the EU, but he saw his chance to stab other members of the Tory party in the back. In short, it's complete chaos. Norway survives very well outside the EU, but Norway didn't piss all its oil wealth up the wall. I know it's not an exact comparison, but I think it's a very useful cautionary tale.

 

i agree with the sentiment but only Mauritania trades on WTO rules which isn’t a great comparator unless we are thinking of bring back slavery.

 

Fair play the 3 who've put they voted leave but would now vote stay...takes courage to acknowledge you've made a mistake

 

I voted remain - and had vested interests to do so - planning to move to Spain, but decided against partly because of Brexit. I would now vote Leave since I have seen the reaction of the EU negotiators - their aim seems to be to punish the UK in order to frighten off any member State from thinking about doing it. "Ever closer Union" and federalism is their stated aim. The UK doesn't want that and never has. The growth of the EU has caused many problems - Romania definitely and Bulgaria probably should not have been allowed to join - their economies only provided a source of cheap labour overseas. In the two years leading up to the referendum there were 4400 applications for national insurance numbers in Barnsley (Source: Local Government Association) - Over 3000 of them were from Romanians. That only counts the numbers of people who have registered to work - it does not include dependants - so we could probably double that figure. In what was a white working class town - these migrants have changed the cultural identity (whether that's for bad or good) - of the place. They have fuelled the low income economy of the area. Take ASOS for example - who work out of the huge warehouse on the site of the old Houghton Main - this is their main distribution centre - and they employ thousands, of mostly (not all) Eastern European workers. The headquarters of ASOS where the creative team work and where the big salaries are paid is in London.

Yes the North needs investment - we don't need to be in the EU to get it. What is needed is some clear vision and leadership from our politicians, and that's not happening. Barnsley lost a generation of young people when the pits closed and I can see the arguments that it will take time to overcome some issues of leaving. We have got new schools - but educational standards don't seem to be going up. Low standards, low expectations - it's a vicious circle. Control over immigration is a must for us to develop our economy sensibly - the principles of free movement and federalism do not fit the UK model.
Globalisation is another issue

 

Would WTO rules in trade mean a hard border in Ireland and what about Gibraltar wonder what will happen to them, peoples, I bet our Foreign Secretary does not give a ............

 

That's simply not true JC. There isn't a link to the interview I heard this morning (yet) but it certainly dispels a lot of the myths, hysteria and misrepresentation surrounding the WTO. The EU has some trade arrangements in place with the WTO but I can't remember the details clearly enough to present them.

The thing is that most people will believe the bits they want to believe and build a straw man argument against the other side.

James O'Brien is the best in the business at building the straw man argument on one side whereas there are others who do the same on the other side. I prefer to listen to the moderate commentators (on both sides) because I find that you get more balanced and in many cases accurate details to ponder upon.

 

H

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41859691

Tbf It seems pretty clear that only Mauritania trades purely on WTO and even they have some agreeements beyond that.

 

I'm torn at the minute. I voted leave, with the belief that in the long term the country will be a better place for my grandkids(if I have any, of course).

But after seeing what a mess the powers that be are making of the negotiations, I honestly don't know what I'd do now if there was a second vote...

 

Staunch leaver. If reform was at all in any way possible, then there may have been a glimmer of hope. By reform, I would have expected a return to what we actually signed up for in the first place, a trading block. Unfortunately the only way to get that reform is outside the EU. The powers that be within the EU are hell bent on increasing ties between the nations. All will be forced to have their budgets approved by the EU regardless of national interest, VETO's have and will continue to be removed to enable the decision making process to be made within the EU parliament. Each nation will become something similar to a federal state of Europe with the head of each country ie our PM, acting something similar to a state senator in the US. European law must override any national laws within each country to ensure conformity. This EU army which is their vision, undermines NATO. We could see our families who serve in the forces being forced to fight in conflicts sanctioned by the EU parliament, against the will of our people..

I'm sorry but the only way for the public to have any say in a democratic way is outside of the EU. Zero chance of reform..

What I have said above isn't just scaremongering, it's the words of people such as Juncker, Macron.. When you look at the big picture it's scary. I would rather be labelled a little Englander if it means that our nation avoids being embroiled in the above measures.

 

Poor choice of wording.. Only in your opinion did they make a mistake..

 

Mauritania is the only country that trades purely on WTO, and only a small number of countries are not members of larger trading blocs - ignoring China which is large enough to not care - these include such delightful centres of free trade as Mongolia, Somalia, Cuba, Western Sahara.

 

We currently trade with 24 countries purely on WTO rules....strangely enough Mauritania is not one of them.

 

Aye the spineless lilly livered cowards.

Takes more courage to stand by your convictions in the face of all this elitist nonsense - stand by your principles and acknowledge you're wiling to suffer in the short term for better prospects for the kids in the long term.

Shame there's not many of the real men left round here with the kind of back bone we had in the 80's - Guardian reading snowflakes.

 

Given that the original treaty of Rome always intended it as the first step towards full European federalization, then that was entirely what we originally signed up for - albeit 20+ years later.

 

Just to add some meat to the bones of what I was saying about the EU trying to diminish national interests over their EU wide vision.

Next year the EU will start to utilise something referred to as the 'Passerelle' clause. This clause is enshrined within article 48 of the 2009 Lisbon treaty which our Labour government under Gordon Brown signed up for without gaining the consent of our nation. In fact they took it so seriously, Gordon Brown didn't even turn up to sign the treaty, instead sending David Milliband to sign us up for it...

This clause pretty much removes individual nations VETO's on a wide range of issues including taxation. Whereby a nation could VETO some EU policy due to their national interest, once this clause is utilised just a simple majority of the EU Nations will be required.

So, bang goes any chance of real reform from what our government were looking for, the only reform that will be pushed through is more union.

Pretty much guaranteed that any nation not currently using the Euro will be forced to adopt it, probably sneaked in using this clause. There will be nothing the individual nation will be able to do to resist, well apart from something like.... oh yeah Brexit..

 

I've read a few accounts and spoke with 2 people who 3rd hand had some insight that we couldn't see.

There were several factors, one of the biggest problems was Cameron and Osborne decided on a marginal approach strategy that scraped them a tiny majority at the previous election, which was obviously wrong for a two choice question. They enlisted a polling "expert" who was beyond incompetent who gave inaccurate data all through the campaign. They also expected Labour to play ball, but once it became clear the Labour hierarchy had no interest in helping them to stay in (either through choice or bloody mindedness), it was all too late. And they sidelined a pro EU Labour structure from taking limelight early in the piece, so by the time they realised Labour votes were well down, they had no machinery to lever.

If anyone can stomach it, there is an interesting account called "all out war"

But I agree on the simple principle these people have all the data, access to papers and experts galore that give way more informed insight than the public do.

To ask the public such a complex matter is frankly ludicrous and dangerous... especially in a era where people can make a sugar coated voting decision on a reality tv programme one week, then u turn with no consequence the next. Voting doesn't seem to be respected how it used to be. And politicians, media and people all play a part in taking blame.

 

N

 

Not yet, it doesn't look to have been uploaded just yet but if I see it I will post it. I'll also try to copy and paste the Telegraph article but that might not be possible until I can connect from a laptop.

 

"Elitist nonsense"
"Guardian reading"
"Snowflake"

Good start. Disappointly no place for "loony left" or "remoaner" there.

And I disagree. It takes courage to look at the shambles we're dealing with now and will be for a long time to follow and say "while I'm part of the reason for this, I realise I've cocked up and would not do the same again".

A pigheaded unwillingness to look facts in the face is the shining quality of "real men" though, apparently.

 

Me pigheaded. Pot Kettle as my mama used to say.

I've looked at the facts - critically assessed them from from both sides. And I'm bright enough to see through the sensationalist propaganda spouted by the BBC, Guardian and other organisations with a vested interest in remaining.

But rather pigheaded than lacking the intellectual capacity or ability to critical asses the BS and run scared at the first sign of a flurry.