Means testing - don't bite me head off but............

v true, also depends on whether when you recognise that Marx's vision and ideas of communism were very different to that applied under Lenin or Stalin.

 

Yes - Marx's vision was just that, an idealised theory that didn't work when put into practice.

 

Marx's true ideals could never be put in place as it required all countries to use the same system

 

You do know the massive and very important difference between Marx's communism and the version put into practice by the USSR and its leaders, dont you?

 

One was Marxism , and the others Leninism & STalinism?

 

RE: One was Marxism , and the others Leninism & STalinism?

True - but some folk seem to think that Stalinism and Communism are basically the same word whilst not understanding the differences, when Stalinism was clearly just a very bad and cruel Barstewardisation of the original Marxist idea.

In Marx's version of communism it put an end to the difference between society and the state, political institutions, political authority and governments. Workers labour was their own and not the possession of the state or private individuals - These things are the direct opposites of the massive USSR bureaucracy and its dictatorial leaders, who far from believing in the power of the individual to control their own lives and organise their own labour were not far removed from kings and queens in terms of their power and ability to wield it over the masses.

That's not to say it would have worked as there were clearly some major problems in Marx's theory, but at the same time it was an idea that was way ahead of its time and shouldnt be consigned to the political scrapheap or labelled a failure as it never reached or got anywhere near its potential. Many of Marx's economic ideas on capitalism and what would happen to the people living under it due to its natural propensity to expolit the worker for the benefits of those above them still hold true today.

 

Yes, as I pointed out, one was put into practice and the other was an idealised theory that wasn't put into practice.
You can argue all you want, the basic fact is that when it's been implemented Communism has been an abject failure. Now you can say, "but that isn't what Marx had in mind" well that was a theory, so to say that would work is an opinion.
To say that Communism has been a failure is a fact.

I think atom bombs are a great idea as I have a theory whereby they'll just destroy buildings but leave people ok, when put into practice that hasn't been the case but that's because those atom bombs were different to the ones I had in mind with my theory - therefore atom bombs are still a good idea!

 

I still maintain that Marx was spectacularly naive to believe you could get people to behave like that on a large scale.

A nice idea but doomed from the outset.

 

No you didn't, you said...

[QUOTE}Yes - Marx's vision was just that, an idealised theory that didn't work when put into practice.[/QUOTE]

Im not going to argue at all that centralised State Communism was a disaster, do you really think Id side with someone like Stalin who killed millions of people?! Jesus Christ... :S

Sorry but that's a completely sh!te analogy! But to play along for one second.......Marx's ideas on communism were never used as they were intended, atom bombs have been used and with only one intention - as history has shown.

 

A better analogy

When uranium was first discovered people were amazed at its physical properties. It gave out heat and was full of energy. Scientists thought that energy would pep people up a bit if they ingested it. So it was put in drinks and stuff. These people got horrible diseases and died because what the scientists hadn't realised is that uranium causes cancer. The uranium was used in exactly the way as the scientists intended, it’s just that all the variables hadn’t been taken in to account. It was a good idea on paper (or they thought so at the time, now it sounds ridiculous), but it didn't work. There have been millions of ideas that looked great on paper but in reality didn't work.

Marxist theory looks great on paper, but in reality it doesn't work. In reality there are many people who will only work for their own benefit. The anthropologists hadn't realised about the selfish nature of humans. The system was put in to practice, but the selfish nature of human beings took over and people did things for their own benefit rather than the society's. Saying the resultant system wasn't what Marx had in mind is like saying that the results of drinking uranium isn't what the scientists had in mind. It isn't, but that isn't because anyone was doing anything wrong, it's just that the idea is flawed in practice. Uranium will always give you cancer and there will always be selfish humans.

 

Whilst its extremely arguable as to how far Marx's original ideas, if put into practice would have worked in any measure, its important to recognise that the human being is an extremely maleable and adaptable creature. You only have to look at human history to see how various political and religious ideologies have altered mans views on his fellow man and what he believes. Feudalism, Nazism, Capitalism, Christianity being some examples as to how an idea has been taken on by groups of people and being heralded as a way of acting and thinking.

We currently have a capitalist economic system which for all its advantages of modern living is destroying the planet we live on. Man killing man for resources buried beneath the ground whether it be oil or precious metals to use in mobile phones. We pollute streams and rivers, cut down massive swaithes of the amazon, burn fossil fuels in disgustingly polluting amounts and for what? A system that dictates that profit is success and anything else is a form of personal failure. In my view sometimes you have to take a step back and take a 'fly on the wall' approach to what we are doing to each other and the earth we live on. If you recognise we can't go on in this way then you either do nothing and face the consequences or you try to think of alternatives.

As Erich Fromm once said, "As long as everybody wants to have more, there must be formations of classes, there must be class war, and in global terms, there must be international war. Greed and peace preclude each other."

 

What the **** are you gibbering on about?

 

RE: A better analogy

As Ive already said, Marxism has many good ideas and many serious flaws, but to throw out the baby with the bathwater and class all those ideas failure would be futile - especially since his ideas were never used in the system he had in mind, which is an important point as you cant measure the success or failure of an idea as it if it is not implemented in the fashion is was designed. You wouldnt accept a football manager telling you the formation of 4-4-2 doesn't work when all along he's been playing 5-3-2 would you? So why apply the same lack of logic to Marx's system when Stalin and Lenin and co. transformed it into something else? Again, im not saying it would work, im just pointing out the vast differences between his ideas and the USSR state's version of them - which were massive.

Some human beings are selfish, but as I said below humans are maleable creatures who can be brought up and educated to do amazing things and to make rational and conscientious decisions. Still, I of course accept that some people are selfish - however you have to ask yourself this is the case do you,

a) Allow a political system to exist where the selfishness and power of the few is allowed to control the powerless and unslefishness many? Why allow a system to exist which abuses our fellow man and our planet?

or

b) Accept that this is fundamentally wrong and try and come up with new ideas and work for an alternative?

Im not stupid enough (despite what people think!) to think any real change will happen in my life time, but my conviction is that its wrong and just as people on here might not understand that, I fail to understand their apathy as we fu.ck each other and the planet over.

btw, all the 'guest' postsd above are mine, I just keep forgetting to type my name in.............

 

RE: What the **** are you gibbering on about?

Since you keep saying you dont read my posts, why should it bother you?

 

RE: A better analogy

"I fail to understand their apathy as we fu.ck each other and the planet over." - I think you hit the nail on the head in the previous sentence...."I'm not stupid enough to think any real change will happen in my life time"
That's the crux of the matter Acky as to the apathy in what is happening to the planet - because we'll be dead before the planet is.
p.s. I guessed that the "guest" postings were yours.

 

anything means tested promotes..........

cheats.

Anything, and I mean anything that becomes means tested, only pushes the current people who do not work to not want to work any further.

ie C Tax benefit etc, means tested benefits against savings and all that. It encourages people either to lie, or cheat the system by not working full time (ie I can only work 16 hours as it will affect my benefits)

Makes me sick, all these dole wallers who can't justify anything rather than they are idle and want a free ride.

All the people who do not work for one reason or another, more specifically the ones who claim incapacity, are you seriously telling me that that there isn't one single job you can't do because of it.

B&*%&$%S to the lot of em I say, get them working, send back all the asylem seakers who are also here to spoonge, and maybe, just maybe, the retirement age can stay where it is, rather than another way of making the workers work more and take more of em.

Safe to say you touched a raw nerve there mate...

 

RE: anything means tested promotes..........

apparently theres a teenage baby factory in leeds who has bene refused benefits.

 

RE: A better analogy

I agree, we live in a society where everything is 'instant' without any long term thought for the future of our children and our childrens' children. Modern 'developed' man doesnt want to think about the future, just about living in the now and deciding relative trivilaities such as what sort of mobile phone to buy or what brand of cola is better.

Aren't you glad those 2.5 million years of evolution gave you the ability to make such amazing choices in your life whilst forgetting the more important questions!

/sarcasm off.