No deal Brexit it is then

Remember the 'EU Grants' are only a proportion of the money the UK paid each year (UK being a net contributor). What you are saying (correctly) is that the EU were not constrained by UK political 'Londoncentric' attitudes and so directed money to needy parts of the UK that the UK Govt would have not. That is more an indictment of UK Governments NOT really an endorsement of the raison d'etre for EU in its current form. Also have not seen much 'thriving' going on in South Yorkshire despite the grants, although 'owt is better than nowt' as they say.

 

Thank you for this post, it's more insightful and reasoned than any debate that took place prior to the referendum, and it would have been great to have had a debate on the issues at this level. In reality the complexity shows exactly why it shouldn't have been a referendum.

I certainly don't expect you to spend your time setting them out on here, but I think your blank sheet of paper approach is an interesting one and presume contained significant disadvantages of leaving the EU and benefits of remaining in.

On the points specific above just a few thoughts. I think on balance they are largely critiques of globalisation and neoliberalism, to which it could certainly be argued the EU have contributed, but leaving the EU will not resolve, instead leaving us completely exposed to its worst excesses.

And one general point. Areas like Barnsley benefited massively from the redistribution of EU levelling up when we were the poorest regions in the EU. I personally have no issue with the poorest countries in the EU now being a beneficiary of that levelling up, for three reasons. Firstly - and pragmatically - reducing economic disparity helps with the political stability of Europe. Secondly - and morally - those countries are poorer on the whole because they didn't benefit from historic advantages that we gained at the expense of much of the rest of the world. And finally, we have more than a big enough economy to fund the EU and level up our own regions, its our own political choices of my whole adult life that mean we don't.

 

Historically they did help. They paid for a lot of the dearne valley link road for example. Trouble is going forward, EU aid is granted on 5 levels. We'd been downgraded in West and South Yorkshire to the lowest eligibility , bizarrely only West Wales and Cornwall qualify for anything slightly better. I agree with both posts in that they have helped in the past, it's our own money and that Westminster might not have spent it. However it isn't an argument going forward because we don't qualify anymore

 

Sorry mate, it was obviously a wind up regarding Skol and Fosters. I haven’t had skol for years, still drink fosters though when having a sesh, like other lagers, ipa’s, wheat beers as well.

 

Hi ark. Political stability in Europe was on my sheet of paper as a remain factor. Whilst there is a "talking shop" its members are much less likely to go to war. However, I am a keen reader of yanis varoufakis and his writings made a case the EU would ultimately implode. The southern debt crisis driven in part by euro membership led to rioting in the streets and a resurgence of extreme parties. I also see longer term an EU superstate destabilising NATO. On behalf of our children the border between Latvia and Russia terrifies me. I'd rather leave it's defence to NATO than the EU.

 

You mean; we didn’t qualify recently. That doesn’t equal we never would again.

Alternatively; how likely are we to get special help from Westminster?

 

No need to apologise, I like a good wind-up. I'm still convinced that you're TFP.

 

Good morning Mr Darfield 138. Nice to see you have sparked a rational debate. In fact this is a more informative thread than anything I’ve heard coming from any politician. As Mr ark 104 (V20) says above, the complexity shows why this should never have been subject to a referendum.

My own reasons for voting remain was the blatant manipulation, deceptions, and stirring up fear and hatred to target the small percentage needed to swing the vote. However, I did think that once we voted to leave, things would settle down and we’d have a government capable of taking rational decisions. Instead events followed a path no one could have predicted.

 

But whether it is a net loss or a net gain for the country isn't it a really important point that we as a northern town get more financial support and are treated better by people in Brussels than we are by the UK government that we/you/they chose t hand all the power to?

 

sums up everything that is wrong with this country. Next time you need a life saving operation don’t bother going up a hospital get someone from Spoons to sort you out. Beneath contempt.

 

Also a big fan of Yanis. Although I tend to side on the fact that there also needs to be a healthy dose of pragmatism in politics, and the world in which he argues for - and I would gladly sign up to - seems as far away as ever.

On balance I believe(d) in remain and reform, and our leaving the EU will sadly bring more instability and although an island we don't exist in splendid isolation from what is happening on our shores. The greatest challenges of the day require global solutions and my fear is that we are being led by hyperbole and rhetoric by those that have an outdated and flawed notion of our own self importance.

 

Unfortunately; the face of the Leave campaign meant that I feared this is exactly where we’d end up.

Boris clearly gambled his future on project leave because it gave him a chance of being PM, and it was obvious that he was completely incapable of the grown up politics to do this right.

 

But Johnson was a long way from achieving power after the Leave vote. In fact I remember suggesting to some people that he would end up as PM. They laughed. He was an idiot. I only half believed he'd get there.

More worrying was the person I worked with thought that Boris being PM wouldn't be bad as he'd be 'fun'. And the bloke interviewed just before the election who said "at least we'll have a laugh with Boris." So rather than going for experience, gravitas and statesmanship we needed a comedian. OK.

 

Isn't that what I said in my post?

 

then why would people in our region who benefit massively from the EU choose to leave? what reason could a massive group of people be convinced to throw the baby out with the baby water?

 

I know a couple of the regulars at Spoons in Wath who'd be happy to oblige. My dad's best mate, who is blind in one eye and permanently stoned, or my uncle, who has Downs Syndrome. They'd definitely do a better job than an expert.

 

remember the experts (on his side) told people like pontyrich that the experts on the other side were lying to him. Whilst lying to him themselves.

they must have pissed themselves laughing when they realised they’d got so many to fall for it.

 

The way I remember it is that shortly after Camerons resignation, Gove announcing his plan to stand for leader meant it split the Brexiteer vote in the party. Up till then Boris was front runner.

 

Not really as you said it was a fact but said it wasn't a reason to stay in the EU. I think it's a huge reason to do so. We only signed the agreement to leave a few months ago and we've already got Manchester at war with Downing street over allegations of discrimination and treating the north like sacrificial lambs to protect the economy of the south.

 

Yes something like that. But what I was saying was after the vote we still had Cameron, then May. At least they gave the appearance of being grown up politicians. Back then I hadn't even considered Johnson might make it as far as PM.