O/T Budget.....new threshold for NI

If your generation (as a whole, rather than individuals) isn't responsible for the state of the world then who is?

 

It might not have been easy, but it was definitely easier.

 

So, in what way am I to blame?

 

It’s a fair point I guess. I just know that I, and my contemporaries, didn’t have things handed to us. My parents, for example, were Irish immigrants who arrived here with nothing. We had an outside toilet and a tin bath. My wife reminds me, on a regular basis, that I arrived in our marital home with a carrier bag and three pairs of nylon underpants. We were the people who tried to stand up to Thatcherism, fully understanding the impact she would have on people like us and our kids. In later years, I used to sit in my office at work listening to my young colleagues discussing the amount of debt they had on their credit cards and wondering what had happened to the idea of saving for something. Whoever you want to blame, it’s definitely not people like me, To do so is simply not only wrong but also offensive.

 

Out of genuine interest, was that marital home one that you'd bought, or were you renting? And either way, can you recall what the cost of it was as a percentage of your household income?

Everyone knows that not everybody of my parents' generation is responsible for the situation in which we all find ourselves. But I think it's worth reflecting on the fact that you're just as representative of your generation as those young colleagues with the credit card debts are of theirs.

 

Things can't be that bad as the Tory's keep getting elected for more of the same old. If people genuinely wanted a government that would provide affordsble housing they would demand it, then, more importantly, get off their arses and vote for it. "The public gets what the public wants".

 

Well, we bought. But then, so has my eldest son. When we moved house three years ago, the couple that bought ours were in their late 20’s. I certainly recognise that some generations happen to live at a time when they can be deemed ‘luckier’ than others. For example, being of a certain age in 1914 or 1939, might be considered as being less fortunate than belonging to what some people term to be the ‘credit card generation’. As other contributors have pointed out, it’s hardly the fault of people like me that we have done our level best to make the best of the cards that life has dealt us. I also sincerely doubt that my kids, and their kids, would accuse us of selfishness.

 

People aren't saying that you're being 'selfish' or it's 'your fault'. Just that it was financially easier to do the things you've mentioned a few decades ago than it is now.

Google the average wage and the average house price of then and now and then compare the two.

 

Same price at Asda in Rotherham.

 

Look, being termed a 'cossetted baby boomer' is simply offensive, and is not the lived experience of people like me. I'm happy to accept that the financial landscape has changed largely, in my opinion, due to the damage caused by Thatcher, and the loss of opportunities in manufacturing and mining in areas such as ours. To my knowledge, Thatcher was not a 'baby boomer'. I'll just end my input to this debate, if I may, by sharing an observation from my time with the company I retired from fairly recently. As a staunch believer in self-improvement and lifelong learning, I persuaded my company to offer full company support (financial and time) to any employee wishing to undertake any form of further education (within reason), including the OU, whose excellence I had directly benefitted from. In a company of around 100 employees, with an average age of around 26, I had one person taking up the offer, and he packed in his OU course having not completed the first module. Now it may be that there was simply a belief that any attempt at self-improvement was futile and would not lead to any worthwhile gain. If so, how sad, because the idea that social mobility was possible, long before many of us had a realistic possibility of attending university, was a key driver in terms of improving the lives of my 'cossetted generation'.

 

You've just ignored what I put.

I haven't called you selfish or entitled or any such thing. I simply said that things were financially easier for you - that's it. It doesn't mean that you didn't work hard, and that you didn't have to scratch and claw for everything.

All I was doing was comparing the average wage to the average house price and the cost of living. That's it.

 

I think you take what was written and what is said about the opportunities your ‘generation’ had over, say the ones I (born 1983) and the later ones have.

Nobody blames you. Or at least I don’t.

But it has to be said that you benefitted from a time of exceptionally low house prices, comparatively very low cost of living, and the opportunity to have a few quid out of your wages spare every month to afford luxuries such as making pension contributions. Could probably afford to run your house and bring your boys up on one wage for a lot of the period if your Mrs had to come out of work.

Times have changed. That isn’t your fault. But people can’t afford to even live what you’d probably deem a careful and thrifty life.

Me and my Mrs do ok, not talking about me. Only ok, but we are fine and will continue to be.

But I’ll give you an example. Someone on here, presumably tongue in cheek, said something about todays younger ones spending on avocado on toast and iPhones. It’s a myth. My cousin, full time specialist carer for adults with autism, and his girlfriend, ft nurse at Barnsley hospital, moved in together last year. We thought all was fine for them. His dad was a bit miffed he’s not been round to see them, always an excuse they gave for him not to go.

The house needs all sorts of work they can’t afford, mainly cosmetic. They were scared to admit it. It all came out, he came over to donny to visit our nanna and broke down when she asked if he was ok. She went absolutely mental at him. They had also been living on a diet of mainly beans on unbuttered toast, twice a day. His dad, my uncle, is over there sorting out the plastering and painting etc, we’ve had their electrics and boiler sorted and my nanna sent him home with £80 worth of food from Herons! They will eat ok for a week or two. But what after that? Fixing the boiler and electrics will hopefully reduce consumption but the prices have shot up. No idea what their mortgage costs but that won’t go down. Turns out they took a pretty poor mortgage on as nobody else would lend to them. Poor decision - but the mortgage is probably no more a month than they paid in rent before so what difference does it really make?

They’ve no kids, no pets. His girlfriend is banging in 55-60 hour weeks (not all paid obvs, it’s the nhs…) - what else can they do?

 

It was me, and I was joking that's what the pensioners should do if they're hard up. I made the joke because it's a line that's been trotted out a few times on here by the OP and others in response to threads about generational inequalities.

Some people of that generation appear to have the attitude "all my successes are down to my hard work and all the younger generations' difficulties are down to their laziness and failings" and are seemingly intentionally blind to the economic context. Nobody is saying anyone didn't work hard or was given stuff for nowt, just that it's a damn sight easier to set yourself up with a comfortable life when you can go to uni for free and/or get a job which allows you to purchase a house and maintain a decent standard of family living off one income.

 

The problem with the state pension is that it is effectively a Ponzi scheme that relied on increased number of workers to fund the pensions of those that retired. (Un)Fortunately, the 60s saw the introduction of the pill and other contraceptive measures that reduced the birth rate so now we are left with more older, retired people and a smaller pool of workers to fund it.

We can either increase immigration to bring in the extra workers (500k+ per year), increase the tax/NI burden on the workers, or raise the pension age/lower the pension - which is already one of the lowest in Western Europe. The "will of the people" is against immigration, which leaves more tax and less pension payments (or Logan's Run) - and at times of high inflation that hammers those at the lower ends of the financial spectrum - both state pensioners and the poor.

 

It was no different really in past generations than it is now. It's has always been the split between the wealthy and the poor.

Look for instance at when interest rates peaked at 17% in 1979 and 15% in 1991. Those with lots of cash hidden away absolutely lapped it up. Normal working person with a mortgage got absolutely smashed to pieces. These multi products like fixed rate mortgages only really became mainstream in the 90's, before that you were at the will of the rate rises.

It's easy to point the finger at a generation and say they had it easier but on the whole the argument doesn't stand up. So many differences in lifestyle than todays generation.

I'm always amazed at the number of brand new cars being driven by 18/19 year olds.. Where do they get their money from... But like I say, it's far too easy to blame a generation.

 

I'm not sure how exactly a generation which had free access to uni, the ability to raise a family on one income, housing that was much cheaper compared to income (and appreciated massively above inflation in the decades since), final salary pensions etc. didn't have it easier.

But you know, new cars and iPhones...

 

Well keep that shallow view then, that's your choice.

You only have to go back slightly further and you have a country recovering from WW2 but yeah, they had it easy..

 

You didn’t, I accept that. But if you look at the post near the beginning that’s exactly what was said. That’s what annoyed me.

 

We're not talking about the immediate post war period though are we? I'm not saying the current generation have it harder than everyone before them, they obviously don't. But they definitely have it harder than the generations immediately before them.

You talk about shallow views after making a generalisation based on new cars. People like you are the reason for the "ok boomer" memes - a complete lack of self awareness regrind generational inequalities, and getting ultra defensive as soon as anyone suggests you might have enjoyed any economic advantages. It's this lack of self awareness that really frustrates younger people - being told "well I just got on and sorted myself out, maybe if you didn't have an iphone/avocado habit/new car you'd be able to do it too" whilst completely ignoring the fact that the economic context is massively different due to the previous generation pulling up the ladder behind themselves.

 

I agree. Re NI for pensioners. The problem is you hit all pensioners with indiscriminate policies like that. or end up having to means test benefits (same applies to low paid unemployed etc) which is not only politically sensitive but, in practise, inefficient and costs more to set up and administer that it is worth, Nevertheless, as a couple we are in the fortunate position (yes we both worked very hard all our lives but luck always plays a part) of being relatively comfortable. There are a few benefits we could claim for but don't and, whilst we could spend time maximising our income, and minimising liabilities life is too short. We are surrounded in our area by people who are much better off financially than we are (several millionaires 'on paper') but they don't appear any happier than we are (on the contrary as many spend half their time 'managing' their assets and talking about how clever they are at avoiding tax etc or complaining how much they have to pay.) I wish!!
Welfare, IMHO, is spread far too thinly, and whilst far too much of the nations wealth end up in the hands of very few, if only there was a way of more fairly distributing the money and benefits that are actually available to those most in need.