OT EVs (I know it is done to death but coming from another angle).....

It has lost range, of course, but what you say is misinterpreting a little. Nissan (along with pretty much all manufacturers) warrant the battery for around 8 years. The warranty will state that the battery will be replaced if its capacity, within that time, reduces to less than 70-75% (depending on manufacturer) of its original capacity within those 8 years. They set that kind of limit because they know that, in practise, the number of times that warranty will be called upon is minimal because the capacity of the battery will not get anywhere near to having lost that much in 8 years - they are not in the business of giving money away by having to replace everyone's battery 8 years down the line.

With just a minor degree of care, EV batteries will lose 1-2% of their capacity a year. Most batteries are therefore expected to be showing less than 25% reduction in capacity after 15 years, which is around the average age of a car when it is scrapped in the UK (14.5 years I think). A car that had a new capacity of say 250 miles real world on a full battery, if it is showing 75% of that after 15 years, would still have spend its later years being very useable for someone who only does local miles. Many examples exist already of cars (e.g. taxis) covering well over 200k miles and still having a very serviceable battery, with many more miles on it than cars would normally expect to cover. A loss of 25% in 8 years, justifying a warranty swap, would be a real rarity - a dodgy battery issue.

There are so many EV myths abound on the internet of people saying that no one in their right mind would buy a second hand EV because the battery will need replacing after 7 years and will cost more than the car is worth etc etc. Total nonsense.

 

What is the care required to look after the battery out of interest?

 

Mainly not keeping it at very high states of charge or very low states of charge for extended periods of time. If you are going on a long road trip then fine, charge it to 100% the night before, and then go. But don't charge it to 100% and leave it sat there for days on end. Batteries are not keen on that - builds up dendrites in the battery cells. Although I believe that, with the move towards more use of Lithium Iron Phosphate (LFP) Batteries, which eliminate the use of Cobalt in favour of iron, even this advice is old hat, as the advice is that these are much safer and more tolerant, and can be charged to 100% and left there with no issues.


Many will point to the fact that rapid charging is not kind to the battery, but to be honest, whilst it is true that charging it at home at 7kw is kinder than charging it on a rapid charger at 100kw, the battery management systems in EVs are very sophisticated and their job is to look after the battery. So they will limit the charge they take on board, depending on several factors, mainly the current state of charge and the ambient temperature. Pretty much all cars now also have liquid cooled battery systems to regulate the heat produced during rapid charging. So the effect of continuous rapid charging is not something to lose any sleep over. The car will deal with it.

 

I'm no expert on this stuff yet, but I believe the Ohme chargers you can get for home use, you leave on overnight and it judges when the cheapest electricity is available and the most efficient speed to put it into the car so that it's ready for the time you've told it to be, in the morning. Or summat like that.

 

Some supermarkets, yes, eg Aldi have some destination charge posts. But some not, eg. Morrisons tend to have rapid chargers from Engie and they charge. Tesco tend to have rapid chargers from Podpoint which cost, but perhaps also destination chargers from Podpoint as well which I believe are free. Although the Podpoint rapids are not bad price wise.

When I first got mine I delighted in popping down for a bit of a free charge but it wore off and to be honest, I avoid free chargers now because being free, they are much more likely to be abused by people hogging them when they don't need the charge because, well it's free innit so why not.

 

Are you sure they are free? The company that has the contract to put rapids into McDonalds estate is Instavolt, and whilst they are probably the best in terms of reliability, free they ain't. They are 50p per kwh.

50kw is old hat now. The newer ones that Instavolt are fitting are all 120kw.

 

They'll just transfer that method to electric cars though surely, especially when they cost 20k. People will be paying their £500 per month just as they were before. But there will be a load of old cars sitting there rusting away. And those that don't want to pay monthly won't have a choice.

 

The thing is, the complete sea change to a new technology for personal transport is well under way now (17.5% of new sales in February) and early adopters are currently benefitting from incentives to switch (free VED, a bit of a grant towards cost, which is decreasing and not paying large sums of excise duty on fuel). But in the medium term, when the switch is largely complete, it will just be 'normal'. They will just be 'cars' and the next generation of drivers won't see any distinction between normal cars and EVs because EVs will be 'normal cars'.

At that point, there isn't any rationale reason why anyone should expect running an EV to be cheaper than it ever was to run an ICE. Any benefits we can derive now are welcome and help to offset the higher purchase price but it wont be long before price parity is reached and we will be long past the adoption tipping point by then. People will just make the natural choice by then that their next car will be EV, not necessarily because of running cost savings but just because they are better. Much better drive experience, more reliable, lower maintenance costs and they don't pollute the local atmosphere and give your kids asthma.

I am expecting that to be the time when the government confirm details of how they will replace the revenue lost from fuel duty. I expect it to be the wide scale roll out of road pricing. And I reckon it will be around 2025/26.

 

And yet other recent articles state that 60% is recyclable...

"Tesla says that it recycles 60 percent of the components from its lithium-ion batteries once they’ve reached end of life. Typically, EV manufacturers put an eight-year warranty on these batteries, which accounts for around 100,000 miles. However, some Tesla cars have been reported with 400,000 miles on the odometer and minimal degradation on the battery.

According to this Medium article, 10 percent of these batteries can also be reused to build components of a new electric car, like the battery case. Tesla also has a special slab that can hold up to 1,000 pounds of batteries to be recycled. Having them all in one place allows them to be recycled quickly and easily.

The only material from these batteries that actually goes into a landfill is the modules. These parts are frozen, shredded, and crushed into harmless fluff that can’t contaminate the soil. Slurry blocks can be used for appliance painting, while copper cobalt gets sold to recycling centers."

Having watched a new item on disposal of batteries, they appear complex to dismantle and require care to avoid explosion. The metals have to smelted and separated.

Admittedly, Tesla is ahead of the game but.. an article also states..

"Unfortunately, the majority of dead lithium-ion batteries end up in a landfill or get stored for long periods of time. When batteries are left too close to a heat source for a long period of time, they can catch fire. Dumping these batteries into the soil can contaminate the earth and potentially surrounding bodies of water with harmful toxins.

Tesla is against dumping the batteries into landfills, and it works with a few different companies to ensure the cleanest recycling process. European Tesla locations partner with a mining company called Umicore. This company uses a “closed-loop” recycling strategy, which means the secondary materials can often be used for their original purpose."


The propylene glycol, used in the battery’s cooling tubes, also gets sold to local recycling centers. All the battery’s electronic components are removed and tested for functionality. Some of these electronics can be reused, but metals and wiring are usually sent to recycling facilities.

 

I did say that in my long OP. But the difference between a new ICE car and a direct equivalent EV in terms of size space, features build quality etc, especiually when you are looking at mid to high spec vehicles still adds up tens of thousands of pounds even with tax advantages for businesses. The EV environmental 6k euro grant or whatever (and here in Italy it is dependent upon scrapping an ICE vehicle which for many makes no sense) nowhere near covers the cost. Like I also said leasing is the only option for many to keep the monthly payments down but you are talking in excess of double the amount per month for an EV over an ICE and the savings from fuel costs servicing annual vehicle tax etc. dont cover it.

It still doesn't add up financially until such time as EVs fall in price... again, like I said, around a third and it starts to make more sense to go EV. if it ain't broke, don't fix it. I get it you are an advocate of EVs and are in a acknowledge you say that when EVs match ICE price wise even if the running costs are the same then EV will be the norm. BUT...that must be that EV prices fall rather than ICE cars' prices climbing to match EVs. The elephant in the room is infrastructure keeping pace.

 

I was thinking of this guy....

 

Err.......... isn't one of the things that engineers state (any physics indicate) is that regular fast charging reduces life of the batteries. and the number of charge cycles over the lifetime. So in one breath People like yourself and Gally claim EVs are no problem on extended journey times regarding charge times on a journey , but then go on to claim management and care of the battery extends its life. Presumably one of the most important actions in care is to minimise the number of rapid charge cycles and keep the battery topped up and don't let it run to low too often.

Now if you are driving on long journeys as part of your job or a taxi driver (albeit these have an extended range anyway due to the low speed/urban nature of the journeys) you are unlikely to stop for a top up when the battery is still half full as that would double the number of stops required on a long trip. I don't argue the longevity of batteries is in doubt but question, based on current scientific evidence from Teslas that have been around 10 years now, the duration and rate at which the range deteriorates.... Two points:

Charging

Charging your battery is a physical process that moves lithium ions and electrons around in the cells. The higher voltage that you use, the more forcefully the physical process happens, and the more physical stress or micro-damage occurs to the battery materials. With very high voltage charging, such as DC fast charging, a lot of heat is also generated, which is not ideal for battery longevity. DC fast charging is the double bacon cheeseburger of charging: great on a road trip but best to avoid everyday. Most batteries are built for regular Level 2, or 220V charging.

Inconsistency of range drop over lifetime
Another EV that’s been on the road many years is the Tesla Model S. It launched in 2012 so battery scientists have a lot of data. Maarten Steinbuch, who shares community-sourced Tesla data, suggested in 2020 "that drivers can expect faster decay in the first 25,000 mile with a much slower decay to 175,000 miles". So after 2 years you will presumably have a noticeable deterioration in the range from new. After that time the drop will be relatively negligible given battery life should be good beyond 200,000 miles.
As you say the vehicle after 8-10 years will probably still have some range useful to people who only travel short distances but what is the residual value and demand for an 8 year old car with reduced range, especially if the value of new ones at that time is much lower as predicted? If the majority of used are ex Lease vehicles 3 4 or 5 years old then an 8 year old vehicle will be on its 3rd owner. The potential buyer will also have no idea if the battery has been subjected to multiple rapid charges ( which increases the risk of failure -are dealers likely to offer warranties on the batteries of an 8 year old car? Unlikely given the replacement costs)
There might be a market for added insurance to cover cost or part cost of replacement?

Also the fact that buying new now, with prices expected to fall rapidly over the next few years means many current buyer owners will see huge depreciation of their asset. Add to that the above point where they take the greatest hit in range deterioration for teh first 25000 miles it does not look like a good deal.

All in all you can argue in favour of EVs all you want but for me there are far too many unanswered questions hanging over them at the present time.

 

Not sure about that. Don't know where you are looking but I dont see how leasing or any purchase scheme could offer the same price for a like for like EV or ICE. Looking at lease packages here, an EV 590 euros pm ICE eqivalent size spec features 350 euros pm both included basic insurance Circolazione annuale (car tax) and servicing .

Over 3 years that is over 8600. at 5ooo miles per year maximum at say 30 mpg Thats about 630 litres per year at 1.60 (around 1000) per year (3000 in 3 years) All the talk of free/cheap electric does not disguise teh fact that the capital outlay is far greater. Not sure how you define 'better car' either. Even 1ok that is £6000 still short of the 8600 (which would be higher in any case as the lease opm would be higher for higher mileage allowance. Still makes no sense.