Petition

This where I seem to be in the minority. The 'herding instinct' kicks in in times like these. Everything becomes 'black and white' Many use confirmation bias and single sources of information based on their personal experiences and prejudices (often ideological or political) hence my reference to 'class war' . Many on here on both sides of the debate have considerable life experience, dont live in the South Yorkshire bubble, are educated, literate and there is a good range of skills and careers in evidence. There are quite a few on here, though, who have never left Barnsley, have little experience of the commercial world and glean all their information and base their views pretty much from one source or two at most.

Obviously I am pro leave but here is my reasoning:

I believe there is NOTHING in leaving that will improve the UKs finances, sovereignty (whatever that really means) or anything that has been claimed by Leave, certainly in the short to medium term.

I view the EU and certainly the Euro as a failing project. Experience has shown an organisation unwilling to change and there are enough quotes from people like Junckers and Tusk and Verhofstadt to suggest that intransigence is set to continue. Arguing "better fighting for change from within" has also been shown to be a waste of time.

The EU has become a politicise juggernaut and far removed from the organisation we joined. I listed the main problems that the EU commission has failed to address has and they are the tip of the iceberg. I agree that rampant Nationalism should be consigned to history but living in Europe, it doesn't take long to realise the 'cooperative 28 nations all united' image portrayed by pro EU organisations and media is a myth as is the argument that most of the population in those countries are all fully behind the EU project. When it comes to the crunch national interests take over. Nationalism is a symptom of that disillusionment not the cause.

So, like voting at a GE I vote, not because I believe the party that I put my mark against is going to improve things, but based on who/what I believe will do the least damage. IMO leaving the EU on its current path will be less damaging for the UK in the long term than remaining.

In truth that may turn out to be a false belief, but no more so than people predicting that the UK will become a 3rd World country simply because we leave. Nobody, including experts on both sides (and certainly not Economists), can predict more than a few months in the future what will happen given the complexity of the modern Global economy. If they could they would all be multi millionaires.

Just as an aside. After WW2 UK was all but bankrupt, much of London and many major cities, factories and industry were destroyed, those that weren' had been given over to the war effort, we owed US a fortune from the lease lend, and we had various loans. Rationing lasted for another 9 years and yet by the 'swinging '60s' the economy was booming, London was vibrant, virtually full employment and the feel good factor was back even with eye watering income tax rates and inflation. Yes it was a different era but that illustrates how quickly things can change and recover.

So, in summary, and to reiterate, I agree there is nothing in leaving that will improve things, and in the short term will almost certainly be worse but longer term we will suffer less when the EU (or at least the Eurozone) comes crashing down by being detached from it .

 

Whilst I agree the EU is failing (to a degree), I am surprised as an ex pat you are pro leave. You and others are in a vulnerable position.

 

The EU have forced nothing on us. We chose to leave, they (rightly) shrugged and set about making sure that our monumental act of self-harm didn’t drag the other 27 down with it. I’d just call that protecting their interests.

I’d pick apart the rest of your tedious, ignorant and massively ill-informed rubbish, but frankly, you’re not worth the effort.

 

Thanks for that. And I think for many of us, if not just about all, our decisions to leave or remain have been determined by our subjective beliefs. For some that is fear of foreigners. For some that is sovereignty. Or like you've said that the EU has changed from what it started as.

Obviously I have a very different view. But that's been formed by trading with Europe, ease of travel, laws that have benefitted me and my perception of ever increasing harmony. I feel better off, more at ease and more connected with Europe. I feel more disgusted and more disconnected with large countries, US, Russia and China. And so it's natural to see Europe (for me) as a place of good and enjoy its protections.

I look at its decision making structures and ours and I'm embarrassed at how inept and slow and opaque we are in comparison.

I think what frustrates me is that there are large elements suggesting no deal is a walk in the park, is what was expected and campaigned for, and is something that should be pushed through for any means necessary, which over the last two days feels hugely hypocritical. As you've said yourself, we're going to take a hit. The currency markets and all the economic indicators show us we're heading for recession and it could be a very long one. Businesses I speak to large and small are unprepared and scared, or, have made plans but really hope they don't have to enact them.

Would the UK be better off in future out? People are generally resilient and adapt to whatever comes our way. But I look at a voluntary choice (in the manner it was handled from start to finish), and it makes little sense to cause such damage that for many of us, are likely to last the rest of our lives.

Will the UK in its inevitably smaller form survive? Yes. Will it thrive. Personally I think it will take a very long time and just perceptions of us globally will hurt us. As for how we look at ourselves. I think this may take generations to ease.

 

As you say we have different opinions but I fully respect yours. In some ways I am more optimistic about the' good ship UK' but in others (age influenced I suppose) I am more cynical.

Interesting what you say about UK lethargic decision making and lack of dynamism. Many 'new' countries are dynamic and embracing change. An example is I used to be in a band and have (had) a Yamaha CP80 Electro acoustic piano, (think of the band Keane). Now retired I am wanting to get out and about and do a bit of gigging but no-way I can transport that which even though it splits into to it weighs over 300 pounds in total. I want something more portable. So I have advertised it on Musicale Mercatino.and got a buyer from Tallinn in Estonia!!!. A really genuine guy who speaks good English and has a number of business interests including a Studio as well as a love of vintage keyboard instruments. I looked Tallinn up and it is described as Europe's 'Silicon Valley' with huge investment in technology and startups. Many of the emerging ex Soviet states are growing whilst the 'old guard' i.e. UK, Italy, France, Spain and even to some extent, Germany, have become complacent, slow to respond and their respective workforces' expectations possibly unrealistic. The World order is changing and whether or not that is down to the EU collective .is debatable but changing it is.

Anyway thanks for the constructive critique and debate. Preferable to the usual personal insults I have to endure from some on here, (although I admit to being a bit inflammatory at times).

 

Went to Tallinn last January and the dynamism is impressive, even more so considering the painful history they’ve come through. I’d recommend anyone to visit any of the Baltic cities, Riga in particular has so much to it. I think Estonia attest to being one of the most go ahead economies and have a good science, technology and I think learning too. I also think their english literacy is something like 9th in the world.

I’ve said numerous times, from seeing developments in Riga, Luxembourg, Vilnius, Gdansk, and more, there is some serious investment going on and being driven by motivated people.

I think that sways my view too, it’s not strictly EU related directly, but though we’d still be Europeans on leaving, I’d definitely feel less European and expect to be viewed outside of the UK as less European. And I know now, I would always resent the way that’s happened until or unless it was corrected.

I see what’s happening in many European cities and I can share their pride. Outside of London, maybe Bristol and Norwich too, I don’t feel that so much.

I know others won’t feel that, and it will be the reverse for many, it’s just how I feel.

 

We were fortunate enough to attend the Milan 2015 Expo and some of the former eastern bloc countries (mostly those ending in ..stan) had highly impressive Pavilions as did China and far Eastern countries. UK was, IMO, clever and worthy but somewhat understated and lacked the 'wow' factor ...

'Theme: "Grown in Britain: Shared Globally"

Design: At the end of a meadow of wildflowers is a massive steel sphere that resembles a beehive. The idea is to emphasize the importance of bees, which is enhanced by a recording of music mixed with real beehive sounds.

Concept: Raise awareness of the impact food has on everyone's lives by showing innovations being made at every stage of the food chain.'

It is a pity that everyone cannot attend these Expos as they really highlight the change in many countries, particularly those where ideology stifled progress and help to rewrite preconceptions of many people who attended (myself included) of the World which becomes 'smaller' by the day. Diversity is great as long as it is the positive kind.

 

Not true I am afraid. People with settled status have nothing to fear. UK Media has been sh*t stirring. Legislation has already been passed in Spain and Italy safeguarding many rights as well as EU (ironically)& International Law . deal or no deal these laws apply.Talk of 'mass deportations' is absolute nonsense as is 'you wont be able to get your pension', 'transfer money' or 'travel to European countries'. Only those who have not researched it, referenced relevant Govt documents and relied on UK tabloid hack reporters and (sadly) some of the less well researched BBC articles have been panicking. Admittedly some people 'living under the wire' who often boasted (we know a few) about "getting away" with certain things may well come unstuck but that is their problem.

 

It said on BBC news this morning that no agreement had been made between Spain and UK in event of no deal, they were interviewing ex-pats.

 

True, but I think a lot of that legislation was based on the UK's agreement for reciprocal terms. Given the PM's penchant for lying through his back teeth and the awful experiences of people applying for settled status here, it looks unlikely this sham of a government will honour any such pledge. What then?

 

I think the expo coincided with my first trip to Milan and recall it being rammed, though didn’t get to it.

And I agree, I think you can learn and reassess so much from travelling and seeing things first hand. Though I also accept not everyone will see and pick up as much or the same things as the next person.

 

I signed it, not that I believe it will do any good. Boris Johnson will do anything that he thinks will be to his own personal advantage. Anyone who thinks he’s acting for them are sadly deluded.

 

No thanks, roll on the 31st October

 

Where have you seen/heard that? I cannot find anything on BBC website ..... Think you or they made that up...

In any event, when people argue that BBC and Guardian don't scaremonger these type of articles appear, implying that people might be deported. They have repeatedly interviewed uninformed expats in Spain- those in 'panic mode' and often fail to include people who know. Most articles are littered with 'may' 'might 'and 'could' rather than report facts. Shoddy journalism.

It contradicts these articles too...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-47412708
https://www.forbes.com/sites/stephe...ws-sense-in-dealing-with-british-expatriates/

People with settled status ---i.e. lived in country for 5 years or more and applied for it , have property, pay tax, registered with state health system etc are OK.
There may well be a bit of additional paperwork but it is not in Spain's, Italy's France's etc interest to lose expats given the money they bring into the country.
As I have said before, mass deportation would break EU law, International Law and be predudicial (given it would discriminate against a specific group of 3rd country migrants (i.e. UK) against others like Americans, Australians, Africans Asians etc. Interviewing tens if not hundreds of thousands of people?? Good luck with that! Appeals through the courts would drag on for years and the cpost would be huge.The backlash from businesses caused by disruption losing key workerswho do not have settled status within Italy Spain etc would also cause th respective Govt problems.
People talk as if nobody ever migrated before EU and FoM came along. It merely simplified the process.

EDIT There are quite a few people WOULD be impacted - those who have 'played fast and loose'. UK citizens who spend more than half the year in a country must get residency permits and pay tax on most types of UK income in that country. After 5 years they should apply for permanent residency as EU member state citizens. (that will be changed with a relatively simple process to remove the EU part).
However,some (and we know one or two) who have property in UK have never applied so avoid having to pay things like UK property tax and income tax here. Some even fail to re-register UK cars (mandatory after 6 months) they have brought over (if they leave them here and dontdtrive on UK roads they dont need to tax them or MOT them in UK. If stopped they simply say they are 'turistici' Since they are not registered in Italy the dont tax them here either nor comply with the 2 year 'revisione' (MOT) They insure them in UK not realising the insurance is invalid if they are found to be here more than 3 months. So they have an uninsured, untaxed and no MOT! Many keep their UK driving licence which will be invalid when we leave and the MAY have to re take the full test written and practical. They are the people who I have no sympathy for and at risk of being found out and denied residency .

 

Yeah I must have been hallucinating when they were interviewing ex-pats and the mayor of Benalmadina on BBC Breakfast yesterday morning

I've not bothered reading the rest of your post after that opening statement.

 

Didn’t the rest of his statement sound a bit like “I’m alright jack.....”

 

I honestly haven't read it, mate.

It is a frequent issue with leave voters though, particularly those of retirement age that it will have minimal impact on. I always vote in elections for what I believe will benefit the majority and the most vulnerable in society, not because of an "i'm alright Jack" attitude. If he is indeed alright, then he should keep his nose out of it and consider himself lucky. It would be like me weighing in on the positives of some former colleagues potentially facing redundancy when I'm not personally affected by it. It is easy to comment when you're not affected.

Given that he has replied to what I saw on TV and has written war and peace in response, it seems he is rattled by it and it would be an awful shame if some of these ex pat pro leavers were to get royally shafted, wouldn't it

 

What evidence have you to show that substantiates this statement . ?

I did not support BJ for PM, but I cannot see that he has put a foot wrong in the 5 weeks or so he has been in office .
££ for NHS , EDUCATION ,CLIMATE CHANGE , STRONG LEADERSHIP , all things that we and all opposition parties have been screaming for . O’and trying to implement the result of the referendum and exit the E U. On that record alone The man deserves some credit I think .
By the way I voted remain but believe we must fulfill the result .

 

The ££ that education and the NHS have had cut from their budgets through Tory austerity measures? That ££ ??

Me: you there, poor man, give me all your money.
Poor man: but I need it to live on, to survive
Me: nonsense, times are tight after Labour caused the global crash; you’ll have to make do - give it to me now...
Poor man: okay, but I’ll really struggle

(Two years later)

Me: you there, poor man, take this money
Poor man: er....thanks? Isn’t this what you t.....
Me: nonsense! It’s different money, look how caring and magnanimous I am!!!

 

[QUOTE="Micky Finn, post: 2344785, member: 6807"

Me: you there, poor man, take this money
Poor man: er....thanks? Isn’t this what you t.....
Me: nonsense! It’s different money, look how caring and magnanimous I am!!![/QUOTE]

Not completely unlike the relationship we have with the EU.