Poppy or Palestine

Of course not. But it’s a bit of a push to conclude that “Palestinians lynch Jews” - a blanket conclusion based on the words and actions of few.

There are also plenty of videos of Israeli ‘actions’ within Gaza, the West Bank and Jerusalem. They can also be watched on hundreds of websites.

Are you denying Israel have contravened international law, human rights law and have committed acts of collective punishment? That they commit war crimes?

 

No argument from me there, but if we had acted honourably in 1918 things might be somewhat different today.

 

I agree that, like in India we played off two sides against each other and created more conflict.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...-evidence-of-sexual-violence-in-hamas-attacks
Many of the atrocities committed by Hamas, as well as what are believed to be civilians or criminal gangs from Gaza who also took advantage of the chaos, have been included by the Israel Defence Forces (IDF) in a 40-minute reel of war crimes, screened to journalists and politicians. However, the most distressing material has not been released, on the grounds that it is too difficult to watch, and to preserve the victims’ dignity.

 

No answer to my question then, no?

 

I have already said on this thread :
"I think innocent people being killed is wrong whoever does it out wherever it happens."
Just don't see the point in repeating myself, but as we are, let me again, question, where is the outrage over 1.5 million Muslims in actual concentration camps in China? Or the ongoing massacre of the Massalit tribe in Darfur by Islamist’s? or the marches against Saudi Arabia, an ally of the west, who've killed hundreds of thousands of Yemenis this year?

What do you think to the links to Hamas of several of the groups organising the protest on Saturday?
Go do some research about PSC, the Friends of al-Aqsa, the Muslim Association of Britain, the Palestinian Forum for Britain, and tell me its a march for peace.

 

On Bravermans wiki page, no idea if true or someone on windup:

She married Rael Braverman, a manager of the Mercedes-Benz Group, whom Braverman described as a "very proud member of the Jewish community",[130] in February 2018 at the House of Commons.[131] Rael Braverman lived in Israel, and Suella Braverman told The Jewish Chronicle that she has "close family members who serve in the IDF".[132] As of 2021, they have two children: a son born in 2019 and a daughter born in 2021.[133][134] She lives in Locks Heath, Hampshire.[135]

 

Israeli forces killed over 200 Palestinians in the first six months of this year, including 6 in raids on camps in Gaza and the West Bank. They are attacking and stealing land in both the West Bank and Gaza. Nothing to do with BP signing an agreement with the Israeli government for a large oil/gas field in Palestinian waters just off the Gaza strip though is it?

This is also footage available on Social Media showing Israeli helicopters shelling Israeli survivors fleeing the festival that Hamas attacked. It might be propaganda, it might be made up, but if it is true, then Israeli forces killed many of the victims of the attack.

And yes, we should be boycotting and protesting Saudi Arabia, Russia, Armenia/Azerbaijan, Afghanistan, Somalia, Syria and all the other countries involved in similar actions.

 

The Gaza border hasn't changed since Israel withdrew to the 1967 green line in 2005, evicted Jewish settlements and handed its running over to the P.A. It only ever goes back in as far as I can tell in retaliation to attacks from there.
The West Bank is different, I believe all of the existing illegal settlements there should be dismantled as they were in Gaza - but its a bigger task and I suspect would require physical force from the Israeli side to remove them.

All the footage I've seen from the festival are either:
1) people dead inside the festival - in the tents, in the bar areas, clearly all been killed at close range.
2) on the roads escaping, generally dragged from cars, or shot in moving cars from ground level - I've not seen any evidence that there was any shelling anywhere near the festival or the roads out.

Plus the dashcam footage and phone footage I've seen - and its all very clear, all support the points in 1&2.
But, who knows? Maybe Israel DID kill their own citizens, after all in turned out that rocket which flattened the Hospital car park and killed 100+ Palestinians last month was fired by Islamic Jihad from within Gaza, and had nothing to do with the Israelis.

 

The thread isn’t about China, but you are of course correct that this issue (amongst many in China) are beyond defending. I agree that the actions in Darfur and Saudi Arabia are as abhorrent: I don’t organise the marches, it isn’t for me to say they can only march for one cause if they do the other. I am not so naïve as to think nobody involved in the organising will have any links to Hamas within them.

But I also know they will be joined by many hundreds, maybe thousands of people, from all ethnic backgrounds, not all Islamic, who will be marching solely for peace. Not looking to cause trouble. I also believe in their right to March and to protest, be it the 11th of November or not. I do not believe they should be disrupting any remembrance event or causing trouble/violence - the met have deemed this not to be likely enough to not allow them to protest in this manner. I have no reason to question that judgment. I also think that if there is any trouble, it will be at least catalysed and quite possibly instigated by the presence of some model citizens from the likes of the EDL and the Football Hooligans Alliance, whatever they’re called, ‘defending the nation’s honour’. These far right nut jobs have been armed by the rhetoric spouted by idiots such as Braverman, Farage and so on.

My replies to you, in any case, were solely due to your apparent support and backing for the Israeli state generally and the IDF - you have given videos and examples of atrocities suffered by Israel but seem very reluctant to acknowledge anything done by Israel specifically. Stating that you think innocent people being killed is always wrong, to paraphrase, as a blanket term is all well and good - but you then went on to specifically castigate only Palestinians in your posting. I feel that imbalance nailed your colours firmly to the mast.

I am firmly of the view that Israeli actions, both in the immediate past and going back 80 years since the country was incepted, have led to this situation every bit as much as any actions by Palestine, their supporting Arab states, or any terrorist group allied to them. I also see their actions in ‘defending themselves’ to be collective punishment, a war crime, showing them once again to have no respect for civility or international law.

 

“From the river to sea…”. Is the cry for collective punishment of Jews, used by terrorist groups for many years, now taken up by, let’s charitably call them naive useful idiots.
I don’t see the need to spell out the bad things Israel has done as every other voice on this thread is doing exactly what you accuse me of - only viewing it one-sided. Hence I wish to bring balance by talking about what the groups supporting this “March for peace” stand for and what they support. Anyone can and should be allowed to March and protest on any number of issues - when those marches call for the collective removal of a country and, by extension, it’s people, you have to wonder whether that is a step too far. By all means protest the deaths, protest the suffering, but if you hitch yourself to that horse be prepared for the ride.

 

It has also been used by Israelis/Jews to Support their right to be there, like any other phrase it can be used to used to support or deride an issue. The Free Palestine protest has called for exactly that not the collective removal of Israel, They have not hitched to ‘other’ agendas, it is the other way round if anything

 

Well I’ve seen enough social media this week to know that this March will be attended by some right bell ends!!! I actually support the March against the sad situation taking place in the Middle East ans i also think it’s right that we have people who want to protect our sacred monuments but sadly this will descend into a face I think, there’ll be morons on both sides too, the far right element will be hell bent on trouble but so will some of the left too…….London could be in for a difficult time Sunday

 

Please don't equate the pro Palestine march with the cenotaph nutters. There will be some idiots and wrong 'uns amongst the pro-Palestine groups no doubt, but it will be a minority.

On the other hand the groups going down to "protect the cenotaph" will be almost exclusively knuckle dragging idiots looking for an excuse to try and legitimise their desire for racism and violence.

As I understand it the Palestine march isn't going near the cenotaph and the police are enforcing exclusion zones around it anyway. So there's no need for the Footie Racists' Alliance or whatever they call themselves these days to get involved at all, and please don't legitimise it by pretending they have admirable aims or it's 6 of one half a dozen of the other. They're coked up dickheads looking for a fight.

 

That's the problem for me. The media (and largely the far right) have spread so many lies and hatred that they've caused the situation. They've created a situation where bell ends are

Lies, damn lies and statistics.

British Jewish people chase money more than other British people:
Definitely true: 3%
Probably true: 14%

Having a connection to Israel makes Jewish people less loyal to Britain than other British people:
Definitely true: 2%
Probably true: 12%

Jewish people consider themselves to be better than other British people:
Definitely true: 3%
Probably true: 9%

Compared to other groups, Jewish people have too much power in the media:
Definitely true: 4%
Probably true: 11%


Jewish people talk about the Holocaust just to further their political agenda:
Definitely true: 3%
Probably true: 9%

Jewish people can be trusted just as much as other British people in business:
Probably not true: 6%
Definitely not true: 3%

To what extent do you agree or disagree with the following statement. "I am just as open to having Jewish friends as I am to having friends from other sections of British society:
Tend to disagree: 3%
Strongly disagree: 1%

 

Who’s legitimising it? It seems cool these days to spoil historic monuments in this country whilst the police do naff all………like I say, I’ve seen enough this week to suggest that it’ll be attended by a lot of dicks

 

It probably will because it's what the right wing media have been trying to stir up all week and encourage. They want the nutters to go along l, it will sell papers and get viewers. They want the right wing extremists to go and 'defend Britain' because it makes them money. If and when the wrong folk on both sides turn up it will be because of our disgusting media and it's portrayal of anyone who doesn't fit their agenda.

 

You are judging by your posts in this thread. Talking about people "ruining the memorials of fallen soldiers" as if it has already happened whereas the worst you'll say about Tommy Robinson is he's "a bit of a knob" and talking about the police arresting people for waving British flags.

Reactionary nationalist stuff.

 

Everyone appears to be a massive expert on this subject. Why don't the leaders come on here for tips. Job done, peace all round

 

No one should be using remembrance weekend to score political points or divide people end of.
Respect the fallen.