Russia invades Ukraine

I suppose objectively all countries are just made up and only exist based on everyone accepting they do.

 

That's why I find it very difficult to get behind "nationalism" and "pride in your country".
Where we are born is just an accident of geography.
By all means fight to protect yourself, your family, your way of life... but don't fight for a symbol or a flag.

 

I would imagine they would given the years under Stalin .
But let’s not forget their were millions at the time sympathetic to Communism and there were many in Poland .
Just as there were many that fought for communism in Spain ,
Let’s not also forget that the ideals these communists were fighting for weren’t Stalins ideals he betrayed the communists world wide and people realised too late in many cases .
The Government in Poland after the war were Polish . Whether or not they were a puppet government was immaterial to the allies and they would not get involved in a civil war .
These are from many books and documentaries which I don’t consider propaganda from these countries you’ve listed , they were stories from the people involved .
Yes after many years of communism the stories are horrendous and the people brutalised but there were at the time many communist sympathisers from these countries there were endless communist partisans who the British , US, And Eastern European govts in exile colleberated with . Are you going to tell me that’s not true as well .

 

Before I reply to that I re-edited my post. I see why you were offended.

EDIT. I've just re-read my post and see that I made a reference to 'half-baked internet' theories and that looks like I'm accusing your views as 'half-baked internet theories.' That is not what I meant at all.What I actually meant is that with so much social media and internet theories going around, its best to refer too sources that are credible. I can see how you took offence and apologies once again.

RE: many communist Poles

I would take issue with that. Of course in all countries there would be some communist sympathisers but few in Poland.

In 1939, Poland was invaded by both the Nazis and the Soviet Union. They split the country in half. The Eastern half was never given back to Poland after the war and became western Ukraine and Western Belarus. That Eastern half of Poland was renamed by the Soviets as Western Ukraine as soon as they arrived. Before 1941 Poles, Ukrainains and Jews from that area were sent to the Gulag in their hundreds of thousands, torture, imprisonment, and executions were routine. Of those left alive few had communist sympathies.

In Nazi occupied territory the horror came to a head, and the struggle for the future of Poland, during the Warsaw Uprising of 1944. Take a close look at Soviet actions there. Their intention was to make sure that anyone capable of forming a free Polish government was dead or in their hands. When the Soviet army arrived at Warsaw its stated intention was to help the Poles drive out the Nazis. Instead they sat outside the city and watched as the Nazis wiped Warsaw from the face of the earth. 90% of the city was rubble.There was no one left alive in Warsaw to be a sympathiser for anybody at all.

 

I’m well aware of social media and the **** that comes off those platforms .
My information doesn’t come from these sources whatsoever .
One of my sources is from the World At War documentary series which is hardly misleading information as its world renowned and from the people who lived through it at the time .
If I were you I’d take tome to watch it it’s a fascinating and insightful documentary .
I know what communism has done to these people but to try and say that there wasn’t some collaboration by the people of these countries is wrong .
Their was some sympathy st the time for these govts just as there was resentment .
Years later I can see why the vast majority of these countries people have a great detest and resentment but at the time there was collaboration and a threat against the allies if they intervened and that’s why they didn’t .
That’s fact not half baked as you put it , trying to rewrite a history years later after being brutalised shouldn’t obliterate the actual facts whether we want to hear them or not

 

I agree, there wasn't much that could be done. That's a very realist point of view. Similar to how some don't believe it's worth risking nuclear war over Ukraine today. From a moral/ethical point of view, which a lot of people are more concerned about, it wasn't the best thing to do, and just highlights how our apparent concern with maintaining the sovereignty of other nations is often a bit inauthentic.

There might have been communist sympathies in Poland, but the Communist Party was a fringe party. At the end of the day, Poland's fate was decided by great powers. Which is whats happening today, unfortunately.

 

Yes I know it doesn't. I've already acknowledged that and apologised.

I've seen the World at War many, many times. It is a superb series. But bear in mind it was made in 1973. At that time and up until 1990 nothing at all was known of what happened in the east. You can see this in the episode dealing with the invasion of Poland. It's mainly about the Germans with a fleeting mention of the Soviets at the end. That inevitabley skews perceptions - it did for me.

 

Anyway, moving on from our general history of post-war domestic Polish political structures...

 

Crabs? Seafood of all kinds? Marzipan?

 

Also in that series shows the aftermath of the battle of Warsaw .
The Polish free army fought the Nazis to a standstill and were almost obliterated whilst the Red Army and Polish Communists waited outside .
When the Red Army and Polish Communists entered he city the fee Polish surrendered to them and as they were being matched away thousands of Warsaw Citizens were beating them as they blamed them for the Nazi atrocities for some reason .
As you said it was nearer the seventies when it was made and the total realism of Stalin’s rule wasn’t fully realised .
But it does show before ‘‘this realisation that many had sympathies with the communists and I would imagine the modern population would rather not hear that and I’d also say it wasn’t as small a minority as you’ve stated although I would grant that it was far from a majority .

 

Of course it was a fringe party but consisted of of thousands rather than just a few and it did claim to be the Polish Government in power and more importantly recognised by Stalin .
I would imagine the Polish People would quickly succumb to this weary of war and atrocities etc .
Which brings me back to my original point that the allies didn’t abandon the Polish people as they had a Polish Government and resistance to it was minimal and reluctantly accepted by a weary population .
And let’s not forget that this would have to be repeated by the allies in Rumania, Hungary ,Former Yugoslavia , Czechoslovakia etc etc . The allies and the people of these countries had had enough .

 

Imagine having to choose between looking after your 11 year old kid or your elderly parent...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60659365

 

How many civilians need to die before the West stand up and protect the innocent who are fighting for democracy against Putin. Our government should be ashamed along with our NATO allies for failing to stand up to this totally unacceptable attack on a Sovereign nation. Are we going to wait until Putin uses chemical weapons or even more heavy Ordnance and watch as thousands will die. The government response to the fleeing women and children refugees has been shameful. We needed a leader who has morales and a backbone we have Boris words fail me.

 

Never miss the business opportunity...

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...ying-stakes-in-russian-energy-commodity-firms

 

Horrific story isn't it. I have an elderly disabled parent and a ten year old so it really resonated with me. I was filling up reading it earlier.

 

What should the UK do?
If we directly attack Russia we are then at war with Russia and have the prospect that Putin will retaliate with nuclear weapons.
I doubt if the people of the UK want that.
The governments choice is keep out of the present war and not put the people of the UK at risk or go to war and risk a nuclear attack.

 

We can't keep backing down to a bully and offering him ab 'off ramp' which basically is negotiating with a terrorist and giving him something in return for not murdering people

 

Surely he's not going to agree to all that....It would make the destruction even more pointless.

 

Just seen breaking news on a twitter feed that says exactly the opposite.....

edited: and it also completely contradicts what he said when he addressed Parliament a little while ago.

 

I detest Boris Johnson. I detest the Tories. However, Johnson is doing no different to any other western leader at the moment. There's no solution that is perfect but, for now, the sensible, practical approach is what we're doing.