Second referendum

you are pro remain,you see practically nothing wrong with the eu,are you sure its not just me thats blinkered ?

 

To be fair nobody cared about a referendum until the recession when politicians chose to falsely blame it all on immigrants and the EU

 

I am pro remain. And of course I will have biases for remaining too. But I'm reading your comments, as well as others and none of them make coherent sense to me to leave the EU and embark on a secret direction... one of which nobody has yet defined, other than saying its fine, everyone is lying to you, don't worry. And the ones portrayed in the media are far from the people I would naturally trust or be influenced by. So as such my stance hasn't changed. If someone can actually put forward a reasoned outline and detailed strategy that allows us to prosper in a liberal open way that tackles global and local challenges better than how we currently can, then I'm willing to listen. Many may disagree, but I actually have a very open view of the world and will gladly shift stance if evidence and instinct proves it best to do so. The EU of course has faults, but to me and my life, they manifest themselves much more rarely than those that manifest themselves from undemocratic forms of voting at GE's that don't represent the democratic will of the people and are carried out by people who have insufficient ability to carry out any such true will of the people.. our government.

And you're right, what others have issue with, I generally don't.

I don't have a problem with free movement. I don't have a problem being in a large elected democratic block that is detailed and transparent compared to our house of commons and house of lords. I don't have a problem with an Eu army or sharing resources, intelligence and data. I have no issue that they strike world trade deals using their scale through detailed negotiation. I have no issue with Schengen. The euro, in the right circumstances, I wouldn't be averse to either. I wouldn't be averse to further countries joining the EU and I wouldn't be averse to a federal state of Europe in time.

But then I think much comes to how you see yourself. I'm European. The more I travel, the more I feel European. The more I travel the UK, the less British I feel. I know that has nothing to do with trade, law, sovereignty or anything else. And although I can't possibly understand the hatred some feel to the EU, they probably can't understand why I have little issue.

I simply look at the EU and the British Government and opposition at this immediate moment, and its more than obvious who I feel trust and loyalty to. I know that's not jingoistic and I should surely be ashamed that I'm not waving the St Georges (irony) flag with gusto... but that's just the way I am.

 

had they held the referendums when they promised them the whole process would have been far easier,this is especially the case with major who could have held one in 1993.He didnt because back then there would have been a far bigger majority to leave than there was in 2016.

"Europe's nations should be guided towards the super-state without their people understanding what is happening. This can be accomplished by successive steps, each disguised as having an economic purpose, but which will eventually and irreversibly lead to federation." Jean Monnet April 1952

whether or not the above quote is true remains open to debate,however,the following 50 years have seen treaty after treaty and act after act making it more and more difficult for a member to leave,all done without the ratification of the people and in a democracy this is wrong.

The wonderful eu are as much to blame as is our own government,it is they who took what was supposed to be a trading block into a political one,some of us are not bothered about this whilst others are,it has been a betrayal of what was on the table in 1975,therefore a referendum was the right choice.

Disintegration has been around for decades,the referendum simply gave it a platform

 

comment rescinded

 

we should not have to be in a political union to travel,i,like you travel all over europe and love it and i have no hatred towards europe, what i am against is the political union,there was and is no need imo.

i would love to see some kind of referendum throughout the entire union to see who is for and who is against the eu in its current form because i honestly feel we would have millions of little frenchies,ities,spaniards,greeks,portugese dutch polish & hungarians etc etc,it is not just this country where anti eu feelings are running high,

 

I rescind my previous post

 

you are wrong there Ark,there was hell on in 1993 when masstricht was agreed to . To get his own mp's off his back and to satisfy conservative party members major promised a referendum,then in 1997 blair used it to win over voters in the marginals after rightly pointing out that major had betrayed the electorate on the subject.

 

it was simply a jibe at the people who keep calling leave voters 'little englanders',there is imo many others throughout europe who would be out given the chance,it was a tongue in cheek comment,its very difficult to say 'little francelander or italanders lol,it was not a derogatory comment towards these people so get of your high horse.

 

I know you won’t agree on the subject but as I’ve said countless times that the democratic part was done in 1975.
We don’t ask our govt to refer to us everytime they make a decision because it’s in the manifesto and our ratification for their leadership and decision making was done at the ballot box . If a party fails we tell them at the next election when they bring their manifestos
No EU sceptic party won a majority and even if they had should only have had referendums on new treaties we’d had our in out referendum so if they are saying we can overturn that one then we can overturn this one on the same principles .
You say it’s a betrayal of the 75 one but it was in or out in 75 after all the commotion of 73 it still won .the way it has gone since as you say it’s developed is by way of democratically elected MPs and later MEPs . That’s unfortunate or fortunate whichever way you like but we voted in

 

The electorate cared so much that when Blair didn't have one he won the next election by a landslide.

I do appreciate that those who voted in 1975 might still have views linked to that period. But I was born in 1981. I've grown up with an integrated Europe, in what is an increasingly inter-connected world. And of my friends I only know one person who voted leave (based on issues with immigration). The things you are against have just been our normality. A generation are bereft at how insular we are being perceived by the outside world. And it is that generation who will have to live with the consequences with no opportunity to reverse the decision. Certainly not on the hugely favourable terms we currently enjoy.

I do wonder what the terms will be when we re-join the EU.

 

I

If there is still an eu by then. I honestly believe that several countries are keeping their powder dry before they also leave

 

Personally I don't believe that will be the case, but if us leaving the EU was going to start it's decline I can not see a better argument to remain. I can't for a second believe anyone can think a less integrated Europe would be a good thing. A regression to isolationism would be catastrophic in the face of the global challenges of today.

 

You make it sound like it's as simple as going to the shop. As though you're barred from Tesco so you'll just go to the Morrisons next door.

 

we voted in AFTER having assurances that there was no further political union,theres a difference in my eyes marlon,thats all pal.

 

basically it is as we already trade throughout the world for the goods i've mentioned..lets say we literally fall out with europe and there is no deal and they say we cannot trade with them, do you not think other parts of the world will up their supplies to us? I for one are very uncomfortable with this scenario that seems to be emerging where europe holds all the power and can seemingly hold us to ransom over food and meds,

i personally think that all this lack of foods,medicines,fcukin troops and ships on standby is nothing more than scare tactics to try and force mays deal through.

 

You know what? Each day is getting more batsh*t crazier than the day before. I've never seen anything like this in my lifetime. I don't understand where the arguments are coming from. I've no idea what governments and opposition are doing yet. I don't understand why common sense is out of the window. I don't understand why the people being put forward for leave interview pieces are people who don't represent anything like the needs of the people. The media standpoints just seem bizarre beyond words as we see the only prepared sensible detailed people in the piece, the EU, being labelled bullies and blackmailers. It's beyond parody. God how I wish spitting image were still going so I could at least get 23 minutes of weekly blood letting from my system.

in between chuntering on here and a report I'm working on, I've been trying to find advice for business in preparing for a hard Brexit. 3 months away with Christmas shoehorned inbetween, is certainly not enough time to be told its allegedly a likelihood and everyone needs to ensure preparations are stepped up. The thing is.... there is no detail out there. At all. Not in the UK at least. Obtusely and unhelpfully the governments web pages still say a hard Brexit is unlikely, but essentially check things as they may change. There are lots of guidance notes, but they don't say anything. because they don't know anything. It's crazy.

How does that help a small business where there are thousands of SIC code definitions... to plan for anything at all? How are 3,500 army personnel going to help me? Strong arm European customers to buy British goods and services? March people to this country and their pockets emptied out for the most keen money grabber? It's just insane.

If this government and opposition allow us to lapse to no deal, knowing the implications, they absolutely should be jailed for life and fed gruel once a month with nothing inbetween.

 

Your lack of understanding just shows why the public should never have been given the vote in the first place.

 

this normality that your generation have towards the political union is exactly why we didnt get a referendum years ago,the political elite and the banks that control them knew the public would have voted out,cameron wrongly assumed that enough of the older blood would have either kicked the bucket or forgotton why there was so much unrest over europe.