So the Sovereignty defending Brexiteers. want to prevent erm, Sovereignty..

I gave up at Trump. Anybody who is stupid enough to champion him is beyond reach.
I was looking at graphs this week highlighting the north/south divide in education, health, jobs etc. How anybody with half an ounce of sense can think Boris and his mates are going to support towns like Barnsley is beyond imagination.

 

Of course we all know where this is heading don't we????????

 

They’ll all be their marching behind the recruitment sergeant and a band singing oer the hills and far away as their lead against an enemy they’ve been told is evil.

 

The other half reads the comments section in The Mail online. It's almost exclusively full of badly educated, appallingly informed utter cretins who have no grasp or understanding of virtually anything. Nigel's army. It's jawdropping.

 

Time for a Toff cull

 

Problem is there’s the Tories and the ones that think they’ve made it and think they’re Tories and they’re the worst.
These because they think they’ve made it act the worst against their former neighbours than any traitor anywhere.
Wanabee Tories the worst species on earth

 

Cull them aswell

 

"The best way to scare a Tory is to read and get rich" - IDLES, Mother.

 

It’s one depressing thread after another these days isn’t it.
I voted leave and I knew it would put me in a camp with some pretty odious people but I held my nose and put the cross in the box. What I didn’t expect was the sheer, forgive me, thickness, of some of my fellow leavers. So many appear to have lost any connection with reality.
I didn’t vote leave with no deal. I object to being lumped in with those that now say they did.
I didn’t vote leave so that a buffoon of a Prime Minister could undermine parliamentary democracy. Why do so many on this site have difficulty in understanding what a Parliamentary democracy is! It’s not difficult.
It’s now over three years since this vote took place. Why is it so difficult to accept there should be another one in view of the fact that a) parliament has failed to deal with the issue and b) the understanding of what ‘leave ‘ means is now clearer than it’s ever been. For what it’s worth, and at the risk of upsetting my remain colleagues, i think ‘leave’ would ‘win’ again.

OR if we want to get back to a true Parliamentary democracy then the recourse is a general election and no more ridiculous ‘people’s votes’. And, for what it’s worth, in that scenario i’d be voting Labour for the simple reason I think they have the best policies AND Brexit is not the only issue, or indeed the most important, on which you chose a Govt. However, I fully accept that there are a considerable number in the British, sorry English, electorate who would vote for a party purely on their Brexit stance. Those people really are the thickest of the thick and are beyond redemption.

 

Perogieing Parliament the irony of using a polish dumpling to force through brexit

 

Ian. This is your fault. One of the real pluses of Brexit, particularly a hard one, is it brings to an end the United Kingdom. That’s a good thing. Why are the people of Scotland not up in arms saying to their English cousins ‘see yer.
We can’t ‘bring back control’ (from London and the South East) in the North of England, or indeed any other part of England until Scotland ends the UK concept. You know you’re going to do that at some point in the near future. Brexit should accelerate that process. Get on with it.

 

Interesting, but no less terrifying

 

At least we wouldn't be paying billions to the EU...

 

It is estimated that EU membership is worth around £30-50bn per year in taxes for the government. Which isn't bad even if we were paying £13bn per year.

 

Although a lot of this thread has regurgitated the old 'leave/remain' arguments the main issue here is that a dangerous precedent is being created. Our parliamentary democracy is being threatened. Like what their views on brexit are or don't like them but the people in the House of Commons are OUR representatives and they are being silenced. I cannot believe that some people on here think that that is ok. It's absolutely wrong at a critical time in our history when the Government should be being scrutinized by them. Boris Johnson and his apologists have shown themselves to be contemptuous of our sovereign parliament. We elected our MP's to speak out and debate. If they are gagged over an important issue like brexit just because they make Johnson's position more uncomfortable then we really are on a slippery slope. I would suggest getting in touch with your own MP and expressing concern as should any genuine democrat of whatever political party.
This event is about a threat to our democracy and should be seen as such and called out whether we believe in leave or remain.
Boris Johnson is a f.....g disgrace.

 

You're right. I can't wait for us to give the NHS 350m a week instead.

That was promised by Boris and Nigel wasn't it?

 

I find it a little disconcerting that a week ago the Diaby song was correctly being ripped to pieces because of discrimination and stereotyping yet someone who votes differently to you gets ripped to pieces because of your discriminatory and stereotypical views.
Have you ever even considered how hypocritical that is?
There are probably a thousand different individual reasons why these people may vote Tory.

 

Boris has won.

[I'm not re-hashing the leave v remain argument - we all know where we stand on that one and we've done it to death.]

I don't accept that democracy has been threatened. Johnson has a legitimate argument that he is entitled to set out his own legislative programme (including his Brexit plans) and that normally demands a new Queen's Speech. There was scheduled to be a three-week hiatus in any event for the Party Conference season. This adds a few days on. Accepted, he has done it so as to not make life any easier to those opposed to his plans, but why would he? What he hasn't done is totally close down any window for debate, both before and after the prorogation. However, the options for his opponents are few and unpromising.

Legal action will not succeed. In Miller v Secretary of State, the government was prevented from taking control of a matter previously legislated upon in the European Communities Act 1972. The Supreme Court held that only Parliament could reverse the effect of legislation it had previously passed. The present situation is different, in that it only involves Johnson in doing nothing so that what Parliament has more recently legislated upon can be allowed to take effect. If MP's didn't want us to reach this situation they shouldn't have passed the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2017.

A vote of no confidence will have the opposite effect than intended. Even if he loses that vote Johnson will not resign. After 14 days an election will be triggered, and the FTPA 2011 provides that the date for that election will be the date recommended to the Queen by the Prime Minister, who will still at that point be Johnson. He makes election day a date after 31 October, and we are out with no deal.

A vote to require Johnson to seek a further extension is unlikely to succeed. He has loyalist peers who will filibuster mercilessly to prevent the passage of any such provision. He will not be as compliant as May was. If such a measure was passed he has a fall-back tactic of delaying presentation of the measure to HM for Royal Assent. No prizes for guessing which date he will delay it to. Even if that fails and he is obliged by the new provision to seek an extension, he goes to the EU and says: "As you know, I am required by Parliament to ask you for another extension, but I am not prepared to give way on any of my previous demands about what the withdrawal agreement should contain." The EU say: "Thanks, but no thanks".

The only tactic I can see that cast-iron works for the pro-EU lobby is to attempt to amend the 2017 Withdrawal Act by removing the right of the Prime Minister to issue (and by implication, revoke) the Article 50 Notice. Parliament could take back control (!) of that power and revoke the notice, but this would be even more difficult to get through both Houses than an extension request requirement. It would also risk the absolute fury of the leave-voting part of the electorate - probably to the point of riots in the streets. I doubt the pro-EU camp would even risk it.

So as I say, in my view Boris has won. The only hope for those of us on the pro-EU side of the debate is that Boris might turn out to be sincere in his expressed desire to have a deal, and that the defeat of the pro-EU lobby (if I am correct in my view) will persuade the Union to give some ground that might give rise to something that Johnson could put back before Parliament. By the time (and if) that happens it really will be "vote for this or we leave with no deal". Parliament reluctantly votes for the deal, which curiously will look not too dissimilar to that negotiated for by Theresa May. In my view that is the best we can hope for at this stage of the game.

 

Good summary. The part you missed off was the rejoining of the EU in a few years time and being forced to join the Euro while losing our rebates and veto’s.

 

You mean the £33bn that Johnson has lied won't be due (even though we're already paying it, hence why its £33bn now, not £39bn)… or do you mean the miniscule percentage of GDP per year, the net amount being less than our DUP sweetener, no deal planning costs and generally, undoing Chris Graylings **** ups?