Starmer v Sunak

It gets worse...

https://x.com/FraserNelson/status/1798333015392739533

According to the Tory-friendly Spectator, the Tories are going to increase tax by £1000 more than Labour are...

 

Remarkably, the Tories are doubling down on the lies this lunchtime. I think many of us would be tempted to go on the all-out attack in the next televised debate, but I don't think Keir will. I suspect he will adopt the same calm, measured approach. It didn't do him any harm last night (according to the reports - I didn't watch) and it's what (along with Tory incompetence) has got him to a 20%+ poll lead.

 

When the spectator turns against a tory.... You know they really have done something very badly wrong!

 

the 2 star review in the guardian is top notch also.

 

We aren't in the USA this isn't a presidential election one independent standing would win just one parliamentary seat he/she would need another 300 + MPs to agree to support him/her to be able to form a working government, our system doesn't work like you want it to.

 

For the benefit of those who can't be arsed to read it, this applies the same methodology as used to get Labour's £2,000 increase, a gets a result for the Tories own policies to be £3,000.

It's also now clear that the £2k figure was a 4 year calculation so, even if accurate, it equates to £500 per year. I don't recall anything in last night's debate mentioning this, and the implication was that Rishi's lies pointed to a £2k annual tax hit.

 

My thoughts at the minute are as follows.
Obviously not going to vote tory or reform as they're trough dwellers. Labour are just there like an anonymous being.
Independents aren't going to be able to offer any kind of change round here.
Ffs it looks like voting Labour. Big sigh.

 

At least you've put some consideration in to it.

 

I'm not defending it I’m giving you the facts! I was a serviceman at the time I’d no desire to fight another man’s war.

if you can’t accept the facts and just keep repeating the same line you’ve got no credibility, none at all and I’d say it’s your blindness and hate that’s clouding your judgement.

 

If I was able to conjure an electoral equation to get the exact balance of parliament id find ideal, id have as few tory MPs as possible, zero reform or anything else of that ilk, a Labour tally of around 315 and the rest of the parties making up the balance to mean a coalition was required or labour operated as a minority. I think thats very very unlikely now. But if I look at my constituency, its one of the biggest labour majorities and likely to be even bigger this time. As a result I can vote for the party that most suits my values. If I was elsewhere, first and foremost id be voting for the party that most damaged the tories.

 

But you are defending it, everything your suggesting is saying it was the right thing to do which it wasnt, the fact is the u.n and other countries condemned it at the time. The British public and American were largely against it. Millions of innocent lives lost and no stockpile of WMD those are also facts.

 

Regardless of the fact that FPTP looks to be favouring Labour this time around, I still think we need to move to a form of PR for UK elections.

The historic argument is that it encourages extremist parties to get seats in Parliament, but we've had two electoral cycles now where the extremist elements on both sides of the spectrum have infiltrated the two main parties and got far greater representation than they every would under PR. Under PR, the socialists could genuinely seek to get representation outside of Labour, and the far-right could do the same under whatever banner they chose to coalesce under. Ultimately, there would have to be a better form of political discourse as most governments would end up having to be some sort of coalition. Given what we've seen in recent years, that wouldn't be a bad thing at all.

 

I think Ill be doing similar. Will be having a look at the boundaries of the constituency and if there's any possibility that the Tories get in I'll vote tactically to stop them. If I think the result is a foregone conclusion I'll vote for the party that best serves my principles.

 

It's a really difficult one and I'm not sure what side i'd plump for yet. I can see opportunities and dangers in shifting to a different system. And I'm not sure the UK public would support that change if offered under a referendum (which surely it must be, though the tories have made numerous changes to gerrymander further bias in the system to favour their vote share).

From a pure fairness perspective, I'd support it. But i am very worried that Reform could end up with 80-100 seats and their voice be amplified at a time where AI is being used in a very dangerous way, together with state influence and those controlling the media could very much row behind a far right party. It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if Reform got to 20-25% of vote share in 2029 or 2034. And that would be very scary.

 

Interesting that Ed Conway (Sky economics correspondent, and former advisor to a certain T May) has run the same exercise as the tories did where they accused Labour that they'd cost households 2k more in tax, but going back using actual figures to 2019. He's found that the tories have cost each household £13,000 extra in tax. Ouch!

 

I'm well aware that one candidate doesn't make up a government and we are not in the US.

It was a point firstly about nothing between the two main parties who aren't really offering much so I would prefer to vote for an independent who may actually care about the area etc.

It may only be one candidate but at least they may have the best interests of the people here rather than towing the same old party line Tories will continue to do things as they have, Labour when they win won't change anything but just keep blaming the Tories.

Thornberry was talking on the news earlier and basically admitted their manifesto wasn't what Labour would do, it's more of a long term aspirational document. So two points to that, we are electing a government for the next 5 years, they should be setting out in their manifesto what they will do in that term of office, then they can add something to say longer term what they would like to do. It's just conning the electorate and hiding from being held to account. I'm pretty sure the Tory one will be the same.

 

You say it would be scary, but those 25% of the population should be allowed to have their views represented, the policies put on the table by reform are legal and valid. It's up to the public to decide whether they want to adopt those policies, not for others just to suppress their views just because they think differently. I think PR has to be introduced to modernise our way of doing things. If people do things in within the law, they are entitled to be represented. I think Reform will probably end up with about 11% of the vote share but end up with a couple of seats max. They will probably finish 2nd in quite a few areas but not manage to win the seats overall.

I shudder to think the lib dems are going to win more seats again. Just my opinion but the worst party out there, given a choice I'd even vote Tory before them

 

I hear what you're saying. I just have this slight problem with overt racists who will say anything to get into power and could whip up hatred of the like we've not seen in generations. Someone of the ilk of Farage is a vast deterioration from even Johnson who is by far the most dangerous person we've had in charge of the levers of power. Thankfully he was too lazy to do that much with them.

At this time, I don't see how the voting system changes though. Neither Labour nor tories would advocate it, given how its favoured them over the decades. And like the referendum under Clegg, I don't think the UK public like a system that will pretty much always deliver what might be considered a draw.

 

I guess the same can be said against the ultra left, very dangerous bunch and we are sleepwalking into their grip year on year.

As a country we have moved to pandering to a noisy minority than ensuring the majority are safe and cared for

As for PR, didn't the Layout conference have some sort of vote the other year and they were in favour? Just in the back of my mind.

 

wasting my time obviously. I’ve suggested nothing.