Strange Fruit.

Much as I don't like to admit it as I cannot stand the bloke, the Berk has done an excellent job at Rochdale. That isn't even open to debate. However, apart from a purple patch in autumn 2011, he was a disaster at Oakwell.

You haven't really explained how Wilson was hounded out or how people are doing the same to Johnson.

 

Wilson was your preferred choice at the time...few months later you were hounding him out.

C'mon then...Your next manager should be..?

 

How did I hound him out exactly?

 

The next boss should be..?

 

Possibly, possibly not.

But he had given up. His body language, his facial expressions and even his team selection for that final Blackburn game gave that away. Actually, it didn't give him away, he wasn't even trying to hide it. He made it pretty obvious he'd had enough.

Maybe he'd had enough of the battle (that he'd instigated) with a large section of the Barnsley supporters. Even if he'd enjoyed some success on the field, there was only ever going to be one loser with that approach, and I'm still not sure he understands that.

Maybe he'd had enough of (to use his phrase) 'walking a tightrope with both legs tied behind his back'. He relishes the challenge of being underdogs at Rochdale, but the budget gap between his team and the big spenders in League 2 and League 1 just isn't comparable with what he had to work with in the Championship and what 75% of the rest of the division had.

Maybe he was fed up with the internal structure or the way the club is run or the personalities at BFC, as you are alluding to. It's certainly possible, but I've no idea what his working relationship was like with Don or Patrick or Barry or whoever. I know he was frustrated about the lack of money available for his team compared to others, but he didn't blame the club for that, he blamed the parachute payments from the Premier League. Rightly so imho. Maybe there were other problems, but he kept his counsel on them if there were.

He's a complex character is Keith Hill. You'll not get many managers taking on a new club, bigger than one they've managed before, only to start rubbishing just about everything about it. Brian Clough tried it at Leeds and lasted 44 days. I don't know what Clough's motivation for doing that was and I don't know Hill's. Even if he wanted to emulate Clough, you'd think he'd imitate the managerial style that brought Clough so much success, not the one thing he did that brought about failure.

I've heard it said many times that Hill was a straight talker and told it like it was: he called a spade a spade. IMHO there couldn't be anything further from the truth. Other than David Flitcroft, I've never encountered anyone whose language was so impenetrable. Just about everything he said was filled with private jokes, metaphors, red herrings and total ballacks that even he didn't believe. I'm pretty sure that's the way he likes it. As such, I haven't a clue why he acted the way he did at Barnsley or why he appeared to speed up the process of his dismissal. I doubt I'll ever know and even if I do somehow find out, I'll probably not understand his reasoning.

I don't think we can conclude anything about our club from Hill's time there. I reckon it would be far more productive to find the answers to why we got rid of the popular Andy Ritchie so soon after promotion. Why we gave Simon Davey all of pre-season and the season ticket money only to sack him 5 league games in to the new season. Why we gave Mark Robins 12 months notice (yes we ******* did, what other club has ever done that?) after the only season in the Championship since administration where we were under no relegation threat what-so-ever. Why we gave in to Flitcroft's demands in the summer only to sack him before Christmas. Why we sacked Wilson when we were as close to the play-offs as we were to relegation.

Keith Hill is an enigma, and when you're working with a maverick your own actions aren't necessarily typical. Better to look at what we normally do.

 

That's a pretty brilliant assessment of Keith Hill to be fair and I can't argue with much of it. But I think that's also why I find it the most interesting period. I'd be bored within 5 minutes of any kind of analysis of Mark Robins as a person, his vision, or his football. I think Hill had the potential to be the manager who could have achieved beyond our means. If he'd been supported correctly and, I completely accept, if he'd been less abrasive.

But I think there are two things the club could do, blame it on Hill and him giving up OR try and see what their role was in that and how they could improve. I would love to know so many answers to what on at that time:

Why wasn't Butterfield offered a new contract when the management team told them to?
Why was Vaz Te sold against their wishes (Flitcroft told me that in person)?
Why were members of the board trying to have Hill sacked after one season?

My biggest issue is that the club set a strategy of reduced spend taking our budget to the lowest in the division and appointed Hill on that basis. As soon as the obvious conclusions of that strategy started to bite the club started to undermine Hill publically and pass the blame to him, so god knows what was going on behind closed doors.

Hill probably had given up but IMHO he must have been driven to this. I always remember Neil Redfearn saying in his autobiography that Wilson wasn't necessarily a better manager than anyone else he played under, but he had the full backing of the whole club and everyone was pulling in the same direction. Until we create a culture for managers to be successful - including supporting them when they are implementing your long term strategy, and having the conviction to stand by the natural consequences of that strategy if you believe it is the right long term plan - then managers won't be successful.

 

Very close to the truth as I know it, at least.

And I still find the idea that Keith slagged off the club and its fanbase as a bit of an exaggerated myth. Nobody ever provides links when I've asked before. Granted, he didn't mince his words at times, but no fcuker was complaining when he had us looking at the playoffs after his first 20 games or so. And it's another occasion where supporters forget their own actions. The bloke cobbled a squad together on a shoestring, and after a good away point on the opening day at Forest, it took the Oakwell boo boys just 20 minutes of the first home game to make Keith and his players feel welcome.

He wasn't everybody's cup of tea, he made mistakes, he was a stubborn arse. But it's ******** when folk suggest he called us all cnuts and pissed on our history.


Was looking at the Oldham and Rochdale forums yesterday, they've noticed the meltdown on here. The Dale lot are grateful though at last, that in the meltdown there isn't a post/thread blaming everything on Keith Hill. Because there's usually many. In fact, one or two are now wondering if Keith was **** on, by the club. How times change.

 

"Flitcroft - possibly the most impressive thing i’ve seen, as a Barnsley fan. To keep us up was a staggering achievement. Sacked in January."

Agree.

The last time I saw a Reds side play with Pride, Passion and Guts was during that spell.

Why did Flicker have to **** it up ? Ah Well

 

I've certainly been guilty of defending Hill in the past when he didn't deserve it, and annoyed people who I really really like by doing so. But I'm a stubborn get and the injustice of the crowd reaction at that game proper put my back up and made me want him to succeed so so much.

 

Putting this on a tshirt. And a sticker. And a f.cking canvas in the front room.

 

There you go JC, instant confirmation that you are talking sense.

 

I've checked the history books. History? What history.

I've no doubts that the off the field atmosphere he worked in was awful. And he's clearly a good manager for Dale

 

I completely agree on the second part. Perhaps the club has finally resolved to do so, come what may? Many are worried at the prospect of 4th division football and cannot see us improving. At the end of the day if one man wants him in he will stay.

I know you are Hills biggest fan barring himself but I have to say...

In fact, it's nowt new, we won't agree so it's best to leave him where he is...the past.

 

I know, didn't mean to start going on about him again. Just think we need to learn from past errors.

 

Perhaps they have. I'm far from convinced by Johnson and I've seen little to convince me he's going to achieve anything to date.

They are in their worst league position and worst run for 30 years with two difficult games to follow away from home. This would be the classic juncture at which to sack him; as it has not happened it's safe to say he's got more time. Quite how long is anyone's guess of course; Whitey is quite categoric that he'd like him to get the full season but at what point do you accept relegation as a distinct possibility not just a fleeting flirtation? No one gets relegated in October but being down there having lost half of their games indicates that they will struggle all season. Could be wrong, hope I am.

At the end of the day a new boss would have the same constraints on signings which again indicates that the club will stand firm in both its recruitment policy and its belief in Johnson and probably that is not before time. We will have our own thoughts on which manager should have got this unswerving support. Personally I'd have preferred it to go to s manager who had a track record of building sides that challenged for promotion rather than one who did ok at Oldham. But that's me probably being nostalgic for the past too. Nostalgic for a time when I actually enjoyed going! Not sure when it stopped. I think it was when Davey got the job after a 3-1 defeat to the Fowls. Yes he took us to Wembley but... Hey he's in the past too. Like many in just jaded with it and if I had to get to Tarn on my own like I did in years gone by and if I was without the social element once there, there's a 1001 things I could and probably should be doing.

Time will tell. Hopefully they can improve enough to stay up and keep enough folk interested to have a better season next season.

 

An excellent view of things!

 

Except for the bit about DW, surely?'

 

Goes without saying.
No regrets there

 

Agree with much of that mate. I genuinely don't have an issue with an investment in youth approach. I just think it is flawed if it isn't supported by some experience. The strategy has to allow for that in January or this season is going to be really difficult. Conversely, one or two wise old heads and things could really pick up.