Well it was a close run thing, but thankfully the vote went the right way

Yes thank the lord for those far right tory extreme brexiteers - the guardians of our democracy!

Doncha just love em!

 

According to the Huff tonight.

However, the defeat certainly ends the brief post-deal honeymoon May was enjoying, and she will head to Brussels for the EU summit fully reminded of her slender grip on power.
In terms of the Brexit process itself, this could turn out to be a Pyrrhic victory for the rebels.
In the minds of those backing the amendment, there is a belief that voting down the deal May brings back from Brussels will send the Government back to the negotiating table.

In reality – and if the negotiating time allowed for by Article 50 has run out – the EU may not want to reopen talks.
MPs may instead be left with the choice of the Government’s deal or leaving on World Trade Organisation terms.
The second scenario is actually favoured by some hard Brexiteers, meaning that this evening those who wanted to water down Brexit have actually strengthened the hand of MPs who want the full-fat version.

 

Yes, I agree with that analysis. But I also think that the EU might, in general, be conducive to reopening negotiations. It all depends on the makeup of the Commons at the point of exit.

 

There are a lot of unknowns...not only the makeup of the Commons but the way the EU itself lines up...Juncker is out officially in October 2019, but it's rumoured he may step down in 2018, one reason being an investigation into his part in a wire tapping scandal in Luxembourg .
If Juncker is in place it seems more likely the EU line will be harder than perhaps Merkel would prefer, will Merkel still be in place though?

 

So the people voted out . Right or wrong .
Some politicians are going against that vote for their own ends and will reverse the vote if possible .
Discuss .

 

They could be going against the vote because they're representing part of the 48% who voted to remain? The Brexiteers can bang on about "the will of the people" all they want, but a huge number of people didn't and don't want to leave. From the way the debate is framed you'd think it was an overwhelming majority, rather than exactly the sort of result that Farage said would be illegitimate if it had gone the other way.

 

I’m more pleased about the other big vote today

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/metro....liament-throws-plan-make-illegal-7156793/amp/

 

It's a red herring though to use Farage's comment as any justification to not accept "the will of the people", and try and overturn a referendum result, like Nicola Sturgeon and Alex Salmond, leaders of effectively one issue parties, the result has no bearing on their conduct because they just carry on as nationalists and separatists .
But to criticise the size of the majority is both dangerous and also ( ( I don't mean you personally ) disingenuous, we all know Cameron as Prime Minister promised to act on that result absolutely clearly...no doubt about that promise...had it been the other way by even one vote, he and the whole of Parliament would have scrapped any consideration of leaving the EU...and rightly so, Brexit had lost, but to claim that the margin was too narrow surely cannot be right ...1.4 million more people voted to leave than to remain, if we do not accept a simple majority, what do we accept...does it have to be 5m.... 10m..how many?

 

Most countries voting on constitutional change usually require more than a simple majority, e.g. 60%, 75% or whatever. The reason is to avoid the danger of inflicting high stakes changes on what (as now) is a divided electorate. That Cameron's government didn't do so in this case cannot be denied. But there are many, many shades of brexit. Exit no deal (WTO?)/Exit + retain single market & customs union/exit and retain customs union only/Norway style deal/Canada style deal/bespoke deal, etc, etc, etc. It can't stop at simply 'out'. The people were ignorant as to what the full outcome would be when they voted. It would be absolute folly to deny them a vote once the flavour of brexit on offer is known. To not do so is to give the public a stick to beat you with once the full disastrous consequences of (e.g.) a hard brexit become clear ("we were never told it was going to be this bad!").

 

You mean the MPs.

 

what?????

 

Don’t forget the referendum was only ‘advisory’. Parliament were not legally obliged to go forward with the result, merely use it to help shape and inform their deliberations about what to do next.

 

She then did a volte face and advocated the hardest possible Brexit by leaving the SM and CU.

 

The leaving date is not cast in stone - yet, May wanted it to be but in the light of last night's vote it can't be, she daren't risk another defeat.

 

As partisan a remainer as Corbyn

 

When voters voted as they did on the Brexit Referendum, they did so for a variety of reasons. As a Remainer, I was fearful of the effect on trade and jobs, but I know that Brexiteers had their own reasons. For many it was immigration, for others it was the lack of accountability of the European decision-makers and for others is was the perception of having silly rules and regulations foisted on us. We each had of own reasoning for voting as we did, but at the time, none of us knew the outcome of the exit negotiations. None of us knew whether the logic of our decision would be upheld in the final deal. What we voted on was whether we should exit Europe based upon what our own view of a future EU free Britain would look like. The negotiators were given no framework for the deal, no red lines, no must haves. They were just told that the majority were in favour of leaving, get on with negotiating our exit based on your own ideas of what an EU free Britain might look like. How do we know that the reason we voted how we did in the original referendum will be reflected in the terms of the final deal. The answer is that we do not. It could be argued that having got our original decision so spectacularly wrong (I would say that as a Remainer, wouldn't I), the government is not going to make the same mistake again, but surely the decision of any vote in a referendum would be much more relevant if it was based upon knowledge rather than ignorance, and that knowledge can only come when the final terms are known and when the effects are fully explained.

 

The first phase of trade talks will be agreeing a transition timetable. If the govt had any sense at all, they'd get that locked down so any cliff edge created from a voting down of a ridiculous deal is averted.

Personally i'd have a final referendum of the people. Trust the people to make a stupid decision, give them the right to decide with hindsight if that stupid decision should be binding once they know what the future may look like.

 

They will vote through whatever deal anyway. This is only so a few noisey Tory backbenchers get to feel somewhat powerful. When the final vote comes to pass the deal, they will vote with the government. Regardless of how Corbyn and Co decide to vote..